but if you don´t try, you won´t know it.

That's the spirit.

You sound like a thoroughly decent chap Steffen. If I was CS I'd help you out. It amazes me how hard-nosed some companies can be, especially when dealing with someone without an income.Best of luck, and keep us posted.IanPs. Your parents let you loose with their credit card do they? They've got more courage than me! I better not tell MY teenage son that...

I have to say that I think this is really quite outrageous. I have never heard of any software developer refusing to update a legally purchased product based on the distribution channel.

 

Obviously Captain Sim agreed to have Just Flight publish its software some time ago. Whether they had a falling out is irrelevant, as they still have a duty to support the end user /purchaser of their product regardless of the distribution channel. They undoubtedly still receive royalties (or did receive royalties) for the purchase of this product, and to leave the user "hanging" without an update is extremely unprofessional. All this baloney about "supporting the developer" is hogwash - Captain Sim made a knowing and intelligent decision to publish via Just Flight, probably to get its product out to users who would otherwise not have heard of CS, myself included.

 

I was thinking of buying the 707 and 727 from Captain Sim, but with this kind of "customer service" I will stay far away. Other developers for FSX (without naming names) do not engage in this sort of unprofessional behavior which serves only to punish the end user. If CS has a problem with Just Flight, that is between CS and Just Flight. The end user should not be punished for this dispute, and CS should continue to support its product no matter what the distribution channel. If CS wants to stop publishing any of its future products through Just Flight, that's entirely CS's choice - but leaving the end user hanging is not only legally questionable, it's bad business. It would cost CS nothing to make their users happy (there is no variable cost associated with making the patch available to JF users, since it's not physical media) and instead they will lose business, at least certainly mine.

I'm invariably quite careful about this sort of thing, where not buying direct from the developer can mean a delay in patches filtering down (or in some cases never filtering down), for example, Steam purchases can be like that on occasion, where a patch might come weeks after it has been available for those who bought from another source. I've had that lead to multiplayer incompatibilities if friends have bought something direct and I've bought it via Steam, to the extent that if some new software with multiplayer is on the way, I'll invariably chat to friends and we'll make sure we all buy the same version from the same source.

 

What that boils down to, is that hard experience leads to one being choosy about where one buys from with certain products, and ultimately, any failings or pitfalls of this nature will eventually make people avoid certain outlets, so it really is in Just Flight's interests to avoid that circumstance, thus one can be sure that if there was something they could do about it, they almost certainly would do. By contrast, great customer support and the likelihood of few problems ever occurring will drive buyers to a source when they know they can buy with confidence. I'm sure it is not a deliberate attempt by Just Flight to make life hard for us, and as I note, if there is anything they could do about it, I am sure that they would do so purely for prudent business reasons if nothing else, but their hands may be tied on the matter.

 

Generally speaking I'll happily buy from JF and have found them to be helpful, but certainly being aware of how patches from CS were often slow in coming to JF, I've always bought direct from CS where CS products were concerned, with the exception of their FSX and FS9 727's, which I did in fact get from Just Flight, although one of those (the boxed FSX CS 727) was in fact supplied to me via Avsim for a review, and I seem to recall pointing out in that Avsim review that differences could occur, since the occasion of having bought the CS FS9 727 as a boxed JF product from a computer store many years ago was my introduction to the potential for this particular issue.

 

I certainly would not wish to put people off buying from JF, and indeed I continue to do so regularly as anyone who frequents the FSX forums will probably be aware, but not with Captain Sim products, which I also would not want to put people off buying; but I always get those direct, because if there one company that we know trickles out patches for years, it is Captain Sim, so we would be reliant on any deals they have via proxy sellers remaining workable if going that route, and I just won't chance that with Captain Sim, knowing their penchant for long term patching processes.

 

Al

I'm invariably quite careful about this sort of thing, where not buying direct from the developer can mean a delay in patches filtering down (or in some cases never filtering down), for example, Steam purchases can be like that on occasion, where a patch might come weeks after it has been available for those who bought from another source. I've had that lead to multiplayer incompatibilities if friends have bought something direct and I've bought it via Steam, to the extent that if some new software with multiplayer is on the way, I'll invariably chat to friends and we'll make sure we all buy the same version from the same source.

 

What that boils down to, is that hard experience leads to one being choosy about where one buys from with certain products, and ultimately, any failings or pitfalls of this nature will eventually make people avoid certain outlets, so it really is in Just Flight's interests to avoid that circumstance, thus one can be sure that if there was something they could do about it, they almost certainly would do. By contrast, great customer support and the likelihood of few problems ever occurring will drive buyers to a source when they know they can buy with confidence. I'm sure it is not a deliberate attempt by Just Flight to make life hard for us, and as I note, if there is anything they could do about it, I am sure that they would do so purely for prudent business reasons if nothing else, but their hands may be tied on the matter.

 

Generally speaking I'll happily buy from JF and have found them to be helpful, but certainly being aware of how patches from CS were often slow in coming to JF, I've always bought direct from CS where CS products were concerned, with the exception of their FSX and FS9 727's, which I did in fact get from Just Flight, although one of those (the boxed FSX CS 727) was in fact supplied to me via Avsim for a review, and I seem to recall pointing out in that Avsim review that differences could occur, since the occasion of having bought the CS FS9 727 as a boxed JF product from a computer store many years ago was my introduction to the potential for this particular issue.

 

I certainly would not wish to put people off buying from JF, and indeed I continue to do so regularly as anyone who frequents the FSX forums will probably be aware, but not with Captain Sim products, which I also would not want to put people off buying; but I always get those direct, because if there one company that we know trickles out patches for years, it is Captain Sim, so we would be reliant on any deals they have via proxy sellers remaining workable if going that route, and I just won't chance that with Captain Sim, knowing their penchant for long term patching processes.

 

Al

This is all fine and well, but not when it leaves the end user hanging. Most FSX users (myself included) do not go trawling around the forums determining where to buy products. I saw a product that seemed interesting, and I bought it. Captain Sim and Just Flight both profited from my purchase. I am not blaming Just Flight here - on the contrary, the problem seems to be Captain Sim refusing to support the JF users because they had a falling out with JF, which is their problem and should not be mine. If CS doesn't intend to support other authorized distribution channels, then it should not have allowed JF (or Aerosoft for that matter) to publish its software. In fact, I understand that this is exactly what CS decided to do - it now publishes all its software directly. That does not entitle it to leave legal purchasers of its software through previously agreed and contracted distribution channels without support, however.

 

And, as I said, it has certainly turned me off from buying any other Captain Sim product in the future, although not necessarily from Just Flight, as it appears to be relatively blameless in all of this. Can you imagine PMDG refusing to allow updates to its software because users purchased the boxed Aerosoft version instead of the download version directly? Captain Sim could stand to learn a few lessons in customer service.

This is all fine and well, but not when it leaves the end user hanging. Most FSX users (myself included) do not go trawling around the forums determining where to buy products.

 

Oh I agree with you, but for those who do frequent forums, and who do use them to determine such stuff, then it can at least serve as a salutary tale, which is after all one of the the purposes of these forums. I know that doesn't help those already affected by that issue, and I've been on the receiving end of that problem too, and agree that CS could probably do more, but whilst they do not do that, then there is at least an informed choice people can make, which is why I chose to post about that choice.

 

Al

While I understand folks being upset about that policy, let me remind you that the vendor of the soft is the authority to blame, contact or point demands at. If that vendor has a contract with the supplier, they may handle support items through their systems or establish other variations for delivering updates.

 

As you saw, Aerosoft took that step on the 767 boxes, allowing their customers to access the CS services directly. JF handled the issue in a different manner (for whatever reason), one we don't know about when it comes to contract details.

So while JF does sell the planes, they also add a note on the special update agreement and the blocked path to anything above 4.4. I don't know how long that note is present though. It's vital of course.

 

And while CS did have some vendors involved, they've reverted back to sell their later stuff via their own shop and system only. Maybe to avoid future confusion. So we are still talking about two parties being involved on the JF / CS case. But I agree, it's the CS image which may take a hit for the most part.

 

However, since they often sell their planes at some 9.99 and since they e.g. never charge for downloading a fresh installer of your purchase (like other devs do), I fail to see the enormous severeness. That little flight sim business offers a variety of 'fishy' things, e.g. no details on prices including taxes, extra costs for additional downloads, strange activation limits, just to name a few.

 

The former JF / CS deal is one of them, that's for sure. But since JF does have that note on the product, and maybe should have had since starting to sell the things, I'd say that this coin has two sides to look at when complaining.

 

Personally, if I was CS, I'd handled the 'spoiled' JF folks differently, maybe allowing them to easily convert their product into a direct CS one. But that's a voluntary type of action. I feel a bit sorry for the JF customers being stuck at 4.4.

This is interesting, but JF has said that they have tried to reach an agreement with CS and CS has absolutely refused to budge, leading me to believe there is bad blood between JF and CS that JF may not be able to do anything about. It seems CS is punishing JF users because of this bad blood.

 

Unfortunately, I did not see that warning on the JF page as I bought the product through a retailer, and in any event it appears to have been added only recently so would not help someone who purchased last year. Also, and while this is more a JF / false advertising issue, the support page for the CS 757 states as follows:

 

http://www.justflight.com/supportfaq/757-captain#FAQ11

 

 

Where can I download the v2.2 update for 757 Captain (in FS2004)?

 

Despite our best efforts over the last few months, we have been informed by the Captain Sim, the developers of 757 Captain, that their development cycle for Flight Simulator 2004 for all its products has ended and as such they are unable to supply any further updates for the Flight Simulator 2004 version of 757 Captain to Just Flight which would have enabled us to create the V2.2 update to supply to you, our valued customers.

To explain, any updated files for this title need to be especially created and supplied to Just Flight by Captain Sim and as Captain Sim no longer have Flight Simulator 2004 on their development computers they are unable to supply us these V2.2 update files, so sadly our hands are tied here. We are unable (both from a technical and legal perspective) to do anything with the V2.2 update that is available for the download version of 757 Captain. We very much appreciate and share your frustrations with this situation and hope you accept our apologies. The Flight Simulator X (FSX) version of 757 Captain continues to be supported.

That you´bve burried out that "old topic" is pretty funny although nothing has chaned on the 757 issue. I simply don´t fly it anymore (well, that´s a loss but therefore I´ve got the NGX)!!

 

And yes, i have to admit that I broke my own word and got some other CS planes again. I bought the 727 and teh C-130 Pro Pack at their 9,99€ sale. I ddin´t want to but the prices were just too good for not getting them.This time directly from CS as I always try to do now as it´s a lot easier and I as a developer also like it if the customers buy right at my shop instead of anywhere else.

 

So while JF does sell the planes, they also add a note on the special update agreement and the blocked path to anything above 4.4. I don't know how long that note is present though. It's vital of course.

 

I got the 757 a long time back. Back then I didn´t see any such notice. But I appreciate that they state it now.

This is interesting, but JF has said that they have tried to reach an agreement with CS and CS has absolutely refused to budge, leading me to believe there is bad blood between JF and CS that JF may not be able to do anything about. It seems CS is punishing JF users because of this bad blood.

 

Unfortunately, I did not see that warning on the JF page as I bought the product through a retailer, and in any event it appears to have been added only recently so would not help someone who purchased last year.

We are deep in the speculations airspace now, but I agree, something in between doesn't look too good. To stay on speculations, I'd ask about the actual reasons for the extra need to build dedicated installers and wrappers. As said, the Aerosoft 767 boxes show that this extra tech isn't needed, it therefore allows the folks to update their Aerosoft box which contains a CS 767. This means an email plus order ID to access the CS systems. Why didn't JF go that way too? As said, we don't know the contract details and reasons behind them. I doubt we ever will.

 

To stay fair, I recall JF and CS being on the positive side of support things. Which renders the obvious downsides on the CS boxed deals even more surprising to me.

 

And yes, i have to admit that I broke my own word and got some other CS planes again. I bought the 727 and teh C-130 Pro Pack at their 9,99€ sale. I ddin´t want to but the prices were just too good for not getting them.This time directly from CS

I'm glad that it turned out better than expected, Steffen. I'm still sorry for the lack of updates on your 757 though.

I purchased the 737 Professional (BlackBox Simulation) 737-200 ADV ($46 US) from Just Flight.

I cannot get e-mail replies to to my support questions.

No service pack to fix problems / issues yet.

Now I got an e-mail from Just Flight saying they are selling the MilViz Beachcraft Baron B55.

Learned my lesson(s).

I will make no more purchases of any kind from Just Flight.

Maybe I will purchase the MilViz Beachcraft Baron B55 directly from MilViz?

Did you try this form, Vaughan? http://www.justfligh...support-contact They have a good service record, so maybe it's just a matter of a misunderstanding in way. Hoping the best.

I've found that Just Flight support is pretty good actually, although their emails do go to spam sometimes, so be sure to check that. To get around that if it proves to be an issue, I'll generally post a query in their forum, which usually elicits a pretty fast response.

 

Al

When CS updates there products, unlike most developers, do not create update installers, they provide full installer links and that is the problem. To get access to them you need a CS order number to login to their system to get the links. Aerosoft uses the same system for their security which is tied into the CS system. As stated above JF chose to use their own security system which CS was never directly given access to. So for their updates CS had to provide a separate update for JF to manage. Sometime after the 4.4 update their contract ran out, and was not renewed. Whether it was bad blood or mutual is speculation. Which unfortunately left JF's customer's high and dry, because there is no reasonable way for CS (not having access to JF's customer records) to verify these orders. So the only way they could possibly do it, is for JF Customers to provide proof of purchase which CS would have to manually verify. This would take resources a developer like CS just doesn't have.