third party developers to be blamed for the way Flight has ended up?

[Bottle 663]

The fact is that community of FSX for example is almost completely made from people who do use at least many freeware addons for it, almost no one flies with default FSX....There is just no need for stupid flying game in few small islands of Hawaii that lacks almost all simulation aspects

Do you have any figures to substantiate your first post? I have none to assess if it is one way or the other, just my suspicion that it is not. It would be nice to have a knowledgeable 3rd party producer give some actual figures or estimates. Until that time, we're all just speculating on how important/unimportant the addon-purchasing punters are to the sales of FSX.As to your second point, I agree completely. Stupid flying game (without guns) won't sell well. Is MS really that stupid though? I personally don't think there's been enough information yet to evaluate what the final Flight game will be like. I'm not convinced the beta that has been released is anything near feature-complete. Most likely it's just a 'place holder' to evaluate the architectures stability and major graphic issues. It makes sense to keep it simple and have it locked into arcade mode. The stupid thing is MS hasn't been clear in communicating just what the beta contains and how it relates to the expected gold release.

[Bottle 663]

Do you have any figures to substantiate your first point? I have none to assess if it is one way or the other, just my suspicion that it is not. It would be nice to have a knowledgeable 3rd party producer give some actual figures or estimates. Until that time, we're all just speculating on how important/unimportant the addon-purchasing punters are to the sales of FSX.As to your second point, I agree completely. Stupid flying game (without guns) won't sell well. Is MS really that stupid though? I personally don't think there's been enough information yet to evaluate what the final Flight game will be like. I'm not convinced the beta that has been released is anything near feature-complete. Most likely it's just a 'place holder' to evaluate the architectures stability and major graphic issues. It makes sense to keep it simple and have it locked into arcade mode. The stupid thing is MS hasn't been clear in communicating just what the beta contains and how it relates to the expected gold release.

[N400QW 205]

.....but my personal experience of online communities (over the entire history of the Internet and for multiple completely seperate pursuits) is that they completely over estimate their improtance and their contribution to any particular pursuit/business/etc. That is, I'm willing to bet that you guys and gals here are the vocal MINORITY.If the FSX/3rd party publisher symbiosis was such a great business model for MS, why did they decide to kill FSX and subsequent flight sims? Obviosuly, from MS's perspective, it was not such a flash deal.If 3rd party publishers were the only reason a flightsim would be viable for MS, do you really think they would be so brainless to invest further millions in a new game and exclude the 3rd party publishers?As one of the largest companies in the world, I suspect MS have their fingers on the data, the details, extensive professional analysis (not armchair forum dwellers opinion), etc. to have a pretty good idea as to what will make them money. And that, at the end of the day, is what they are in business to do; It's not a Non-Profit organisation, it's not an Aviation Evangalist organisation, it's not Father Christmas, it's a company and they are in control of their destiny. As the saying goes, "deal with it".

Thanks Bottle.The community needs to fully realize the truth contained in the lines above.In effect, MS has "changed the game" based on their own criteria and have purposely rejected 3rd Party Input when it crossed purposes with MS plans.In short, no 3rd Party Development House or FS Customer Base is large or influential enough to call on MS to "change course".So as Bottle has eloquently posted... "deal with it".

[Bottle 663]

Info I've just obtained from another forum post here;ORBIX estimate the addon-purchasing community to number about 40,000 (an informed estimate).Phil Taylor has stated in the past the yearly sales of FSX was about 280,000 (an informed estimate).Some FS community people will have left so the total is likely to be a bit over 40,000 (perhaps maximum 45,000?)Sales of FSX will have decreased over time, so total sales to date, maybe tops 400,000?Thus, the addon-purchasing community probaly figures at about 10%, perhaps 15% at the most.'nuff said.

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Info I've just obtained from another forum post here;ORBIX estimate the addon-purchasing community to number about 40,000 (an informed estimate).'nuff said.

I doubt that it is anything like those numbers currently for FSX, more like 10% of that, if. Just my uninformed guess based upon observation. Edited January 8, 2012 by SpiritFlyer

[xplanery 250]

Almost no one flies default FSX, you say. You are so wrong. The majority of people who bought FSX don't even KNOW there are addons for it. As Bottle said, we simmers usually overestimate the amount of simmers. You say the community of FSX is completely made from people who do use at least many freeware addons for it: that's right. But the COMMUNITY you are talking about is very small. A lot smaller than you think. And that's why MS is very clever to release a basic game for free and at the same time use that free game to let people see they can get more DLC. As I said, most FSX owners don't even know that it's possible to add stuff to FSX. They SURE will now that it is possible for MS Flight.

Could be true, but I doubt that many of those who bought FSX but never downloaded any addon for it use it actively at all. At least I would get very bored to default jets after short time and eventually I would just forget whole thing. I believe that after initial release of FSX big part of those who bought it just mostly forgot whole thing, and that from those that actually use FSX today most have some addons for it too.And I do not believe that Microsoft marketing people could not overestimate need for arcade flying game.Anyway without third party devs I doubt that anyone would use FSX today. Edited January 8, 2012 by pvjinflight

[Guest]

Could be true, but I doubt that many of those who bought FSX but never downloaded any addon for it use it actively at all. At least I would get very bored to default jets after short time and eventually I would just forget whole thing. I believe that after initial release of FSX big part of those who bought it just mostly forgot whole thing, and that from those that actually use FSX today most have some addons for it too.Anyway without third party devs I doubt that anyone would use FSX today.

True, they probably forgot about FSX. But that's why it's a clever move to release a free game and include a store for more: this way they will KNOW they can add stuff to their game! And indeed, without 3rd part devs FSX would have been dead for years already.

I personally don't think there's been enough information yet to evaluate what the final Flight game will be like. I'm not convinced the beta that has been released is anything near feature-complete.

True. Maybe we should compare the beta and the upcoming free version of MS Flight to the FSX demo... That one also only had a few islands...! Who knows what MS has created without telling us! To be honest I can hardly imagine they have been working all this time on such a small island. But that's just speculation, of course. Edited January 8, 2012 by J van E

[Rimshot 1,143]

Info I've just obtained from another forum post here;ORBIX estimate the addon-purchasing community to number about 40,000 (an informed estimate).Phil Taylor has stated in the past the yearly sales of FSX was about 280,000 (an informed estimate).Some FS community people will have left so the total is likely to be a bit over 40,000 (perhaps maximum 45,000?)Sales of FSX will have decreased over time, so total sales to date, maybe tops 400,000?Thus, the addon-purchasing community probaly figures at about 10%, perhaps 15% at the most.'nuff said.

Why can't people get the name of Orbx right? Orbix sounds like a character from Asterix. :(

[KERNEL32 500]

The OP has a GOOD point!!

Edited January 8, 2012 by KERNEL32

[Guest]

Info I've just obtained from another forum post here;ORBIX estimate the addon-purchasing community to number about 40,000 (an informed estimate).Phil Taylor has stated in the past the yearly sales of FSX was about 280,000 (an informed estimate).Some FS community people will have left so the total is likely to be a bit over 40,000 (perhaps maximum 45,000?)Sales of FSX will have decreased over time, so total sales to date, maybe tops 400,000?Thus, the addon-purchasing community probaly figures at about 10%, perhaps 15% at the most.'nuff said.

That's 280.000 every year for FSX... And 40.000 should then be total of ALL people who buy addons from various developers. Maybe 1 here, maybe a few there. Orbx or any other company would LOVE to sell 40.000 copies of one or their products! I think it will be more something like 4000. Probably less.Let's say it IS 4.000 for one specific product (and that would be a bestseller, I think). Compare that to 5 years of FSX which is roughly 1.400.000, if Phil is right. That would mean that something like 0.28% of all FSX buyers actually buy a specific addon...? :( These numbers are just guesses but I think there are closer to reality then your calculations. Edited January 8, 2012 by J van E

[KERNEL32 500]

That's 280.000 every year for FSX... And 40.000 should then be total of ALL people who buy addons from various developers. Maybe 1 here, maybe a few there. Orbx or any other company would LOVE to sell 40.000 copies of one or their products! I think it will be more something like 4000. Probably less.Let's say it IS 4.000 for one specific product (and that would be a bestseller, I think). Compare that to 5 years of FSX which is roughly 1.400.000, if Phil is right. That would mean that something like 0.28% of all FSX buyers actually buy a specific addon...? :( These numbers are just guesses but I think there are closer to reality then your calculations.

Yes, but think of this for a moment, just how much that add on sales would INCREASE if the main welcome screen for Flight is the "gateway" to add-ons?

[Guest]

Yes, but think of this for a moment, just how much that add on sales would INCREASE if the main welcome screen for Flight is the "gateway" to add-ons?

LOL That's what I've been saying all the time! And that's why 3rd party devs should have jumped on the MS Flight train! But they didn't...

[mgh 89]

Yes, but think of this for a moment, just how much that add on sales would INCREASE if the main welcome screen for Flight is the "gateway" to add-ons?

That's probably just what Microsoft thought when it planned Flight - more sales for Microsoft! Edited January 8, 2012 by mgh

[KERNEL32 500]

LOL That's what I've been saying all the time! And that's why 3rd party devs should have jumped on the MS Flight train! But they didn't...

Yah, uuhmmm - just because "we" the Flight Sim community "know how" to dig in and download add ons, install them, etc. I think the add on devs missed the boat by not thinking outside the box enough --- I mean "we" the FS community are "smart" and get it with add ons and how to do them, but MOST (98%?) of the people out there aren't going to be bothered by looking things up on the net or going to AVSIM... they want it ALL right in front of them with a SIMPLE BUY NOW button within the game itself. It's just how the world is today. Hey even I like the simplicity of it all at times ;)

[N2056 33]

LOL That's what I've been saying all the time! And that's why 3rd party devs should have jumped on the MS Flight train! But they didn't...

From what I have read in various places it's more like they were forbidden to board, and I think that was planned all along.