third party developers to be blamed for the way Flight has ended up?

[Guest comma]

"To make the same $X after giving 50% away, one needs to reduce production cost and in the FS world that means a reduction of simulation depth and overall quality."No, no, no. That's where you guys seems too "into" your passion and oversee the business challenge. To make the same $X after giving 50% (totally arbitrary number by the way) you have to SELL MORE. Sell 100% more. That's where the UNIQUE online store comes to help. No need to market your proper website, no need to attract trafic, no need for ads : what these things cost before ? Maybe MORE than the commission of the store.Every customer comes from the store. So great product = great reward, quality takes all. Craps get trashed. Your addon is very good ? Maybe FS will feature it (bucks !). This is the Free Market. LOVE IT.Go for It, MS !

[Marith 2]

It's not just the %, and we really don't know for certain how much that % is, that they have been asked to give away to MS, but also the control and intellectual property rights on all their products.I am certain that if the terms of agreement made good business sense the 3rd party developers wouldn't have declined. Remember, the 3rd party developers aren't a charity, they are businesses just like Microsoft.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Marith

[Glynn 405]

HelloI would guess from reading your posts that you have not used Flight! yet

[Guest comma]

"No one will create high quality addons for Flight as there is no demand for them because Flight is intended to mainstream who really cant operate PMDG quality addons"I'm tired of these nonsense. What is the % of the FSX owners is hardcore ? Face it, get a life. Just ask for PMDG their sales number and compare it to FSX total sales. How much ? 0,5% if lucky ? Common, FSX is not PMDG this is tiring.The fact that the large base of customer won't run complex aircraft (as of today, sorry guy) does not mean the product can't. Maybe 90% of the store would be "collecting stars" addons but who cares if you have on the side complex addons which are bought by the hardcore simmers on considerably much less numbers but higher price.I think you guys should invest more times in business school than in FS flying because there is some strategy you don't seems to get.Base pack is free man. You want ATC, and maybe Europe terra, mesh and landclass ? Sure, we've got that in the store, here's the link !Do you understand at last that the business model is kind of clever ?

[Mike_CFII_MEL 790]

Hi,Two things you need to look at. How many non-hard core simmers are still using FSX today?. How many FSX copies are collecting dust on a shelf or better yet have been thrown in the garbage?. How many copies were purchased by mommy for little Jimmy at Christmas time and/or their birthday that haven't seen the light of day? Now compare that to the number of sales of PMDG aircraft that are still in use today.Flight is going to be based on sales after they give out the initial install, most will become bored with this type of addon as it is, and if it were a boxed item, it would collect dust just as FSX is doing for thousands of non-hard core simmers.

I'm tired of these nonsense. What is the % of the FSX owners is hardcore ? Face it, get a life. Just ask for PMDG their sales number and compare it to FSX total sales. How much ? 0,5% if lucky ? Common, FSX is not PMDG this is tiring.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Mike_CFII_MEL

[Attila 2]

@ ,Your method of calculation works only if you assume that there will be a larger market for high complexity/quality products if they are sold through the MS store. Unfortunately that will not be the case. Perhaps a little more product will be sold, but not enough to make up the difference caused by the reduced price.We have been saying for months that the people who wanted to buy $8_0 products have been doing so for years. Dropping the price to $10 and selling to people who won't even be able to start the engines is not a winning strategy.It isn't for 3PDs and it won't be for MS either.But we'll see what happens. I think the up-coming CES show will tell us much more.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Attila

[Marith 2]

Also see it from our point of view which is the customer who spends the money.How much do I (we) have to buy in the hope that they release an ATC pack?We don't know what their plans are for DLC except comments from the project leader that they're aiming for a different market than us and that market isn't into the complicated bit of flying.It makes more sense to me to wait for a couple of years to see how Flight turns out and whether the DLC Microsoft provides interest to me or not. In the meantime continue enjoying FSX :(.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Marith

[xplanery 250]

"No one will create high quality addons for Flight as there is no demand for them because Flight is intended to mainstream who really cant operate PMDG quality addons"I'm tired of these nonsense. What is the % of the FSX owners is hardcore ? Face it, get a life. Just ask for PMDG their sales number and compare it to FSX total sales. How much ? 0,5% if lucky ? Common, FSX is not PMDG this is tiring.The fact that the large base of customer won't run complex aircraft (as of today, sorry guy) does not mean the product can't. Maybe 90% of the store would be "collecting stars" addons but who cares if you have on the side complex addons which are bought by the hardcore simmers on considerably much less numbers but higher price.I think you guys should invest more times in business school than in FS flying because there is some strategy you don't seems to get.Base pack is free man. You want ATC, and maybe Europe terra, mesh and landclass ? Sure, we've got that in the store, here's the link !Do you understand at last that the business model is kind of clever ?

Big part of people who bought FSX just flew with it a little and forgot whole thing. From community that actually uses it today way bigger part is actually kind of hardcore. Also like flyaway simulations article says there will be no whole world available even as addons, so I doubt that we will ever see anything like whole Europe modeled, most likely just some cool places such as little Pacific Islands and maybe part of Grand Canyon.Yes I understand that you could make money with that kind of business model if you actually have people who are interested in the game, but as Flight will not include whole world and most likely not ATC either even as addon, none of flight simmers really will be interested in it. Also mainstream does not care much about civilian flying games, and thats where Flight fails. It does not apply to its target audience.Also do you really think that anyone is going to buy PMDG quality jets to fly around small pacific islands? Nope. And also it would take years to create those high quality addons for Flight.Me and most of hardcore users of for example PMDG jet addons demand simulator where you can actually fly real like routes in anywhere in the whole world, I do not want to fly around few pacific islands with a 747. Its nonsense. Edited January 9, 2012 by pvjinflight

[mgh 89]

MS didn't decide they didn't 'need them'. 'Them' decided not to work for MS Flight on MS terms! MS will still be looking for 3rd party developers to deliver dlc, but only on their terms.

And Microsoft needed them so little they let them walk away!

[hellcat38 0]

The OP has a point. We never really heard a complaint about flight before its release announcement was made. Most were excited and ready for a new game.But from all the threads and posts on the web,3rd party developers knew and were even asked for there input into flight well before the announcement was made.. So why the big criticism now?

[Mike_CFII_MEL 790]

Hi,I believe MS wants every single dollar they can get their hands on, if the 3rd. party market won't come along (with their I'm sure steep terms) so be it as far as MS is concerned. They will just take over the 3rd. party market for flight and make their own addons. Either way, they get the cash from making addons for flight or they get the cash off the backs of third party programmers. That's the way their bean counters look at it.Greed is what has taken us to this point with Flight. MS has seen the amount of cash that is available via the 3rd. party market and wants to take as much of it as possible. Personally, I'm glad the 3rd. party developers told MS to take a flying leap.

And Microsoft needed them so little they let them walk away!

Edited January 9, 2012 by Mike_CFII_MEL

[hellcat38 0]

Hi,I believe MS wants every single dollar they can get their hands on, if the 3rd. party market won't come along (with their I'm sure steep terms) so be it as far as MS is concerned. They will just take over the 3rd. party market for flight and make their own addons. Either way, they get the cash from making addons for flight or they get the cash off the backs of third party programmers. That's the way their bean counters look at it.Greed is what has taken us to this point with Flight. MS has seen the amount of cash that is available via the 3rd. party market and wants to take as much of it as possible. Personally, I'm glad the 3rd. party developers told MS to take a flying leap.

Well said and I agree. But what corporations are not greedy? Even some of the FSX addon Dev's are this away.

[Guest]

About MS Flight not covering the entire world: I know a LOT of SIMMERS who refuse to fly above anything but Orbx scenery. I've been flying above PNW alone ever since the day it was released. I flew in Europe for a short while when the PMDG 737NGX was released, and I tried some other Orbx regions, but I always come back to PNW. And I am not alone. Some people never leave down under, for instance. Not everyone is into real life flightplans and airliners: there is a huge crowd of low and slow GA lovers out there. A lot of them are still interested in MS Flight... :wink:I am not saying Hawaii is a dream come true (it isn't) but (and I am not the only one who is saying this) I rather have one perfect region then a mediocre complete world.Let's not forget we are all in this hobby for various reasons and that we all have different desires and hopes when it comes to flightsimming.

Edited January 9, 2012 by J van E

[mgh 89]

Greed is what has taken us to this point with Flight.

Whose greed? Microsoft's for offering what it's prepared to pay, or the 3rd party developers for wanting more?Surely, it's just a normal commercial situation?

[n4gix 4,955]

Actually I dont believe stuff from Flight is sold to LM.I spend whole day yesterday with the beta, only looking at the engine, not gettings coins or othe gameplay thing, and it is not bad at all.Currently it is seriously limited, but thats another thing.

Johan,

1. Load the Stearman
2. Hold the brakes
3. Advance the throttle
4. Slowly give a bit of down elevator
5. Watch what happens.