Viperpilot you've hit the nail on the head...now watch how many disagree and blather on without once comprehending the significance of what you have posted. In late 2005, we and other developers were invited to Redmond to view the upcoming FSX. At the time, there was a sense that MS was making a quiet effort to learn about the levels generated in the 3PD market.We even generated content at their request for the rollout. Negotiations with MS over "FS Next" came to the proverbial screeching halt shortly before Aces Studio became the victim of those who wished to see the franchise "go in a different direction." It then became clear that many of those discussions with fellow developers were gradually forming a picture that was not good for the FS Franchise.Nevertheless, those trusted developers have committed to continuing to develop for FS9/FSX because they still have a love for aviation AND for Simulated Flight.I recall numerous conversations with trusted fellow developers over the uneasy feeling that FSX was likely the last iteration of Flight Simulation that we could all continue to develop for.I mention a few of these things to illustrate the fact that this "ain't our first rodeo" and that any claim that Flight was somehow the redheaded stepchild of 3PDs is the most ignorant assumption we'seen to date. :(

Thanks Jim for your well considered chastisement :)However, based on the sheer number of emails of support from almost all corners of the FSX developer community, I am fairly confident that I do in fact speak for most developers when I share my dismay at MS. If Flight1 feels otherwise then that is your prerogative but please don't make it personal.I have the balls to say what almost all developers think, so I am happy to be the fall guy. I can sleep easy knowing I spoke my mind at a time when the last thing MS needs is flowery brown nosing from developers they have shown little respect for.And with that, I shall sign out of AVSIM for the foreseeable future and get back to making more customer-driven content for FSX and P3D, where at least we have a choice of what we make for parts of the world that are relevant to where simmers want to fly.Cheers all! :)

Thanks for the years of waiting for the B200... lots of head fakes with that! :-)

Not so fast John.1. You do not speak for the "majority of developers" and you know that to be the case.2. Whether or not you have gonads is not appropos to any of this discussion and to infer that the rest of the development community lacks "balls" is an insult.3. When you return, show a little more respect for other developers and do not assume that you speak for men who are more than capable of speaking for themselves whether the subject is FSX or P3D.

@etheris 100% agreed. That was part of my point, I think MS is scrambling to find a market with a positive cash flow...but they don't have the market vision of Steve Jobs...Bill Gates has always readily admitted that@Ron and Alain - I seem to detect the unspoken hint that MS siphoned off knowledge from 3PDs and then dismissed them thinking they could pull off a full sim without them...only to find out that in 18 months they could only pull off 2 planes and one island. :( Am I reading this wrong? I for one applaud the work done by the upper tier 3pds...I think it's amazing to say the least. On top of that, the shear variety of add-ons is mind boggling. In fact the shear variety of FSX is amazing...I can fly my Citation X to China, then hop in my 757 and fly from Denver to Vegas, then head into the mountain lakes east of Portland (KCZK) and practice short runway approaches, or river landings, in a Gruman Goose, or the freeware Icon A5 :( before I take my stealth fighter to FL500... :im Not Worthy:Flight has a hard road ahead of it..

Which commercial add-on developers have licences for the liveries they use?

Good point -- and will this open a huge can of worms for Airlines later down the road when MS seeks their "permission", thereby putting the issue front and center to the airlines, to use their livery under license and maybe even pointing out the hundreds and thousands of repaints made without airline permission? The airlines will have big $$ signs I'm sure in their eyes seeing those numbers!Anyone remember how sensitive Disney was with any repaints with their 747 schemes? I believe there were even threats of legal action over repaint files!!

@etheris 100% agreed. That was part of my point, I think MS is scrambling to find a market with a positive cash flow...but they don't have the market vision of Steve Jobs...Bill Gates has always readily admitted that@Ron and Alain - I seem to detect the unspoken hint that MS siphoned off knowledge from 3PDs and then dismissed them thinking they could pull off a full sim without them...only to find out that in 18 months they could only pull off 2 planes and one island. :( Am I reading this wrong?I for one applaud the work done by the upper tier 3pds...I think it's amazing to say the least. On top of that, the shear variety of add-ons is mind boggling. In fact the shear variety of FSX is amazing...I can fly my Citation X to China, then hop in my 757 and fly from Denver to Vegas, then head into the mountain lakes east of Portland (KCZK) and practice short runway approaches, or river landings, in a Gruman Goose, or the freeware Icon A5 :( before I take my stealth fighter to FL500... :im Not Worthy:Flight has a hard road ahead of it..

I'm just expressing my opinion as I do not deal with hint, speculations or rumours to be B) again.... :(

Ron and Alain - I seem to detect the unspoken hint that MS siphoned off knowledge from 3PDs and then dismissed them thinking they could pull off a full sim without them...only to find out that in 18 months they could only pull off 2 planes and one island. Am I reading this wrong?

I've not hinted that MS "siphoned off expertise from 3PDs" but have stated that there was a sense of "marketshare" being evaluated. That of itself is no crime, just business....Can't speak for other developers but my posts point to the fact that 3PDs are treated in a manner that is less than favorable to development for Flight. :(

Whoops! Sorry, nothing to see here! Cheers, SLuggy

Edited January 10, 201214 yr by sluggy

Thanks Jim for your well considered chastisement :)However, based on the sheer number of emails of support from almost all corners of the FSX developer community, I am fairly confident that I do in fact speak for most developers when I share my dismay at MS. If Flight1 feels otherwise then that is your prerogative but please don't make it personal.John, it is only personal if you make it so. However, I am not sure why you would think that you have a need to speak for most developers. I would assume they can speak for themselves.Again, "if" I were on the beta or even pre beta's, I would respect the NDA I would have agreed with, so informing the public of anything including my opinion would fall under the NDA which is a legal document.I have the balls to say what almost all developers think, so I am happy to be the fall guy. I can sleep easy knowing I spoke my mind at a time when the last thing MS needs is flowery brown nosing from developers they have shown little respect for.Please...Balls have nothing to do with it. + This is Flightsim. Yes, Flightsim. Not sure where the feeling of being a martyr even applies.MS has shown me a lot of respect over the years. Of course there have been plenty of tuff times as well, but I have no desire to blast them in public and throw the baby out with the bath water either.Besides that, we continue to support FSX, ESP, and even some FS2004 products and last time I checked, those are Microsoft products. We derive part of our income from them and technically, they could have never allowed 3rd party development if they wanted too. Bottom line? Please don't pool me in with your "almost all developers" statment. It is not accurate and I don't need a represenative. And with that, I shall sign out of AVSIM for the foreseeable future and get back to making more customer-driven content for FSX and P3D, where at least we have a choice of what we make for parts of the world that are relevant to where simmers want to fly.There are lots of choices, always have been. But I think it wears better if you just make them.Jim

EDIT!

Edited January 10, 201214 yr by J van E

Now the developers are arguing with people taking sides. It's like The Lord of the Flies.

Edited January 10, 201214 yr by flyingscampi

Now the developers are arguing with people taking sides. It's like The Lord of the Flies.

Yeah, you're right. :( I edited my post.

Edited January 10, 201214 yr by J van E

Now the developers are arguing with people taking sides.

Nope. We've never had other devs "speak for us" and we are not about to start now. John should know better. :(

Now the developers are arguing with people taking sides. It's like The Lord of the Flies.

Sorry, to burst the bubble, but no food fight here. A simple fact that I can represent myself and prefer too. And just because one dev says it, doesnt mean its necessarily so.I have been doing this as long if not longer than anyone in the business, and have seen a lot over the many years and versions. I see nothing that alarms me or would cause me to take MS to the wood shed.At the end of the day, it's a simulator gents. Nobody has a gun to anyones head and I have learned over the years that if you dont agree or embrace something, you put your hat on and get more clever.