But you are under the 'a priori' assumption that FLIGHT will be a success, and thus in a self-referential circular logic

No I'm not.I have NEVER stated anywhere that Flight will be a success. In the post you just quoted me from I wrote: "...if Flight is going to be a success ..."Here, I'll break it down, so that you won't be so confused that you'll have to search Wikipedia for another Latin term to try to use against me (I have a degree in Legal Studies):My argument is based on my logical deductions that:

1. The ONLY way that Flight will be successful will be if users pay for enough DLC for the bean counters at MS to be satisfied with the game's profit margin.
2. Because Flight is totally dependent on DLC sales, it will take the combined purchases of both gamers and simmers for the game to be deemed financially successful enough for the development of DLC to continue.
3. Microsoft has already come to the same conclusion, so the Flight team are trying to make Flight highly appealing to both groups.

Although the marketing people apparently haven't totally caught on yet that they have to promote the simulator part of Flight just as much as the game part (likely because they don't understand the simulator part).BTW: You can disagree with me all you want, but you should at least make sure that you understand what my points are before you try to argue against them.

+1I agreed with everything you say, except one part, which while it may be true, I cannot AGREE with.What a sad world this has become, when the only goal that a large Corporation has, is to make money, for a few, selected FORTUNATE people, who are the Shareholders.

And how is money made for the "few, selected FORTUNATE people"? By providing goods and/or services that people want, need, or desire at a price the market deems workable. As much as I'm preturbed at MS as a simmer, I simply cannot vilify them for doing what any healthy corporation would do. This "OWS" attitude is about the most envy-based, ill-informed I've ever seen.

As if for you msn will include the two communities in flight, I have not seen any type ofincentive in the project to excite the hardcore community, just vague rumors of hidden features that are neither official nor have we seen any kind of rumour or filtration, the biggest, two videos were quickly removed checklists showing interactive and click able controls by mouse or gamepad, but beyond anything else. As much faith that we have some tangible evidence, either by official communications firm, lists of products to make, images, videos and others. Again, I like that aspect of smoke speculation that there may simply be a well orchestrated lies and rumours to increase dividends.

1. Because Flight is totally dependent on DLC sales, it will take the combined purchases of both gamers and simmers for the game to be deemed financially successful enough for the development of DLC to continue.
2. Microsoft has already come to the same conclusion, so the Flight team are trying to make Flight highly appealing to both groups.

Although the marketing people apparently haven't totally caught on yet that they have to promote the simulator part of Flight just as much as the game part (likely because they don't understand the simulator part).

I don't know what you base your first point on. Given the MS marketing and all information we have so far and everything said in this forum since Flight was announced speaks against this. How many times have you read that we are not the target audience - from the very people who are now telling us that there is more to Flight than meets the eye.Point two may have been true a year ago when MS was talking to 3PDs and was trying to set a direction. Given what we know about Flight, how exactly are they doing the appealing?The marketing people are clearly clueless, because they can't even promote the game for new players. I have been trying to find an article of substance on Flight since CES opened, but I cannot find any.This forum is the only place where people actually talk about Flight with any regularity. Everywhere else is dead. If it were not for the leaked beta videos, Flight would be a complete non-issue.

Microsoft Flight hands-on: It’s a blast, and no mere gamePosting from Las Vegas: The Consumer Electronics Show here this week offers a sneak peek of Microsoft Flight, the successor to the company’s discontinued Flight Simulator franchise. I spent some time playing Microsoft Flight at the company’s CES booth this morning, and if everyone else has as much fun with this thing as I did, the company might just have a hit on its hands.The most important point, particularly for traditional Flight Simulator fans: This is still very much a simulator. Microsoft has added more game mechanics to the experience, such as challenges to test flying skills, but in the end it’s too realistic to be considered a mere video game. It works via Xbox 360 controller, joystick or keyboard and mouse.The controls default to the greatest level of flight control assistance, but even with all that help, I struggled to properly land the light sport aircraft ICON A5 that will be featured in the simulator. (Obviously I’m not a pilot.) That said, even when I crashed, it was a fun and challenging experience, enticing me to keep playing and improving my meager aviation skills.In that way, Microsoft Flight is far more approachable to a wider audience, which could actually be a good thing for aviation in general — as long as people aren’t inspired by the game to follow in the footsteps of the Barefoot Bandit.Hard-core Flight Simmers and real pilots will be able to adjust the controls to make the experience more realistic, and tough, by removing the built-in assistance for stability, braking, fuel mixture and propeller effects.Microsoft closed Aces, the team that was responsible for the nearly 30-year-old Flight Simulator franchise, as part of its broader cutbacks nearly three years ago. It was a highly controversial move among the hard-core flight simulation community.Microsoft Game Studios plans to release Flight this spring, under a free-to-play model.

There are LOT's of other forums that are discussing Flight (just not to the level of AVSIM insanity):http://www.fsdevelop...ad.php?p=325345http://hardforum.com...hp?p=1038242093http://www.rockpaper...icrosoft-Flighthttp://orbiter-forum...ad.php?p=329307http://www.flightsim...-MS-Flight-hate

Edited January 13, 201214 yr by Arwen

Sorry, I don't see your point."This is still very much a simulator." - based on what?"Hard-core Flight Simmers and real pilots will be able to adjust the controls to make the experience more realistic, and tough, by removing the built-in assistance for stability, braking, fuel mixture and propeller effects." - Wow!It takes a little more than this to appeal to simmers, I would think.

And there's a LOT of logical reasoning behind my optimism. I cannot believe that MS is going to leave out the stuff that simmers have come to expect will be included in a flightsim. Their Free + DLC method is not going to succeed unless simmers buy into Flight.

That's correct!

MS needs BOTH groups if Flight is going to be a success. This is what I've stated ad nauseum.And the simmers are not going to buy Flight unless it include that stuff that so many are demanding.I'm pretty sure that MS knows both of these things,

+100

It's true...the new direction is user driven.

Yes. Isn't that a good thing?

Now MS is strictly going after the mass market and the low hanging fruit. FLIGHT has turned its backs on the hard core simming community, what did you expect the reaction to be?

Part of "the mass market" will get hooked. Then they want "high hanging fruit" (and MS make more money). :(

My argument is based on my logical deductions that:The ONLY way that Flight will be successful will be if users pay for enough DLC for the bean counters at MS to be satisfied with the game's profit margin.Because Flight is totally dependent on DLC sales, it will take the combined purchases of both gamers and simmers for the game to be deemed financially successful enough for the development of DLC to continue.Microsoft has already come to the same conclusion, so the Flight team are trying to make Flight highly appealing to both groups.

I'm with you. "Flight is totally dependent on DLC sales" and "highly appealing to both groups".

Don't hold your breath for other regions around the world that look like Hawaii for sale in their online store

The whole Flight project is so poorly funded it is laughable.

Who said that?Orbx, on 07 January 2012 - 01:39 PMWhy?Can you guess the answer?

Sorry, I don't see your point.

That's because you refuse to acknowledge anything positive about Flight. You want Flight to fail, and you and your inflated ego cannot accept that you might be wrong and that Flight might end up being a success.

"This is still very much a simulator." - based on what?

Based in the reviewer's impression (that is what reviews are). Again, since his opinion is contrary to your own opinion of Flight, you cannot acknowledge it.

"Hard-core Flight Simmers and real pilots will be able to adjust the controls to make the experience more realistic, and tough, by removing the built-in assistance for stability, braking, fuel mixture and propeller effects." - Wow!It takes a little more than this to appeal to simmers, I would think.

Again, IT IS A BETA!!! I posted hard evidence that is contrary to your views and you attempt to discount them.Grow up and stop hating and bashing MS and Flight. Get over yourself . . . you know nothing about Flight (and you are blind to what you have seen so far).I'm done with you and your hate.This is a place for flight simulator enthusiasts, not flight simulator haters.

Edited January 13, 201214 yr by Arwen

"It's true...the new direction is user driven."

Yes. Isn't that a good thing?

It would be if the user base were 90% simmers and 10% gamers, not the other way around.Why do you think there are no serious Flight sims any more - like Falcon 4? Why are there so few games of genres that used to be mainstream, like strategy games. Because 95% of gamers are not interested in reading manuals.So, Flight being user driven means add-ons which require the least reading - ie: least complex. Lots of eye candy, but no substance. One can have fun with a Stearman and that's the kind of stuff that will dominate the Flight store.

That's because you refuse to acknowledge anything positive about Flight. You want Flight to fail, and you and your inflated ego cannot accept that you might be wrong and that Flight might end up being a success.Based in the reviewer's impression (that is what reviews are). Again, since his opinion is contrary to your own opinion of Flight, you cannot acknowledge it.Again, IT IS A BETA!!! I posted hard evidence that is contrary to your views and you attempt to discount them.Grow up and stop hating and bashing MS and Flight. Get over yourself . . . you know nothing about Flight (and you are blind to what you have seen so far).I'm done with you and your hate.This is a place for flight simulator enthusiasts, not flight simulator haters.

Wow, my ego? My hate?For having an opinion different than yours? For asking you to actually back up your words - which you conveniently ignore?I do not hate simulators. What gave you that idea?That statement is as illogical as your rose-colored view of Flight.

Wow, my ego? My hate?For having an opinion different than yours? For asking you to actually back up your words - which you conveniently ignore?I do not hate simulators. What gave you that idea?That statement is as illogical as your rose-colored view of Flight.

http://rlv.zcache.com/im_ignoring_you_shirt-p235433276881631870zv3oe_400.jpg

http://rlv.zcache.co...70zv3oe_400.jpg

LOL

http://rlv.zcache.co...70zv3oe_400.jpg

Hahahaha you go girl.....

Hahahaha you go girl.....

Yes, very mature.