Demo mess

[P47D 5]

Humm.. I understand where you are coming from. However I guess since I am new to x-plane I just wanna lay it all out there.. good bad or indiferent and find a fix if there is one to my problem. If you can't vent about xplane in the xplane forum then what else can I do. I have a feeling the creator of xplane wouldnt want me to "quietly go away and find something you do like" he would probably want me to come in here and vent and vent and figure out how to fix the program so I will buy it. It seems to me the hard core xplaners have a chip on their shoulder. I came in here and had one post about how bad the demo was and got jumped. I bet if we look back at the first FSX posts they called it junk too. the FPS was REALLY bad when I first bought it. In any case I think you and everyone in here should be supportive of a new person coming in here with complaints and problems rather than take the stance of "if you like it great if you don't screw you" That is just counter productive.I am looking forward to seeing the improvements and hopefully will purchase it one day as a solid alternative to FSX. I think it could be better at some point..

[jasonX 24]

No one here that I'm aware of has a chip on their shoulder (maybe one or 2 trolls who hardly class as hard core users). If you come in saying anyones stuff is rubbish and no good etc; then it's my bet you'd get jumped anywhere with that approach. Thats a far cry from asking for some assistance.Even so you still got plenty of support.

[snip]It seems to me the hard core xplaners have a chip on their shoulder. I came in here and had one post about how bad the demo was and got jumped. I bet if we look back at the first FSX posts they called it junk too. the FPS was REALLY bad when I first bought it.In any case I think you and everyone in here should be supportive of a new person coming in here with complaints and problems rather than take the stance of "if you like it great if you don't screw you" That is just counter productive.I am looking forward to seeing the improvements and hopefully will purchase it one day as a solid alternative to FSX. I think it could be better at some point..

[Muskoka 104]

Dude, first of all, I'm not, and never will be a "hard core xplaner". I don't have a hard core allegiance to any piece of software.

In any case I think you and everyone in here should be supportive of a new person coming in here with complaints and problems rather than take the stance of "if you like it great if you don't screw you" That is just counter productive.

This is what I said, and is quite different in context, than the spin your trying to put on it. Also, I said it was a generalization, and not directly pointed at you.

Download the demo, if you like it great, fork over some money, if you don't, then quietly go away and find something you do like. Don't come here complaining about something your never going to support.

It would be like someone coming into your place of business and saying "all the stuff in this store is junk, I just tried one of your free samples and I didn't like it."Well, like the demo, try it, if you like it fine, buy the product, if you don't like it, move on, or go back to something you do like, I do :( . I have a lot more understanding and compassion for someone that does actually buy, and wants to support a product, and is having an issue, than people that rant for the sake of ranting.There are ways of getting a message across, that net you the same gain in the end , and don't come across as flaming or trolling. It would have been just as easy to say:"Hey guys, looking at finding another sim to use in the future, and I'm trying the demo of Xplane. I'm having these issues 1,2,3,4...etc. Can someone please help me out."Worded a lot different than the rants you see around here, but still gets your point across, that there's problems with this piece of software that need to be addressed.Glen

[Mountain Man 142]

One thing someone said in another post was "you have no business complaining if you are only using the demo".

I have no idea why anybody would tell you that since the demo is identical to the full version minus world-wide scenery and with a 10-minute flight-time limit. What we will tell you is that you have to put some time into tuning X-Plane and learning your way around the interface before you can get the most out of it, which makes us inherently suspicious of anybody who appears to be making a snap judgment based on minimal play time (for instance, complaining about the default settings). Edited January 21, 2012 by Mountain Man

[fvapres 7]

I take it that someone said the "dont complain if you have the demo" as an inference that you don't have a right to complain about a feature that is broken unless you've forked over cash for something. I'd say that anyone, paying or not, has the freedom to complain about a feature that isn't up to par. Maybe if more features that are base expectations from users are well-rounded and complete, the user-base for the product will increase. As it is, default things for many other titles like world scenery that imitates the real-world counterparts (not to be confused with plausible scenery that has buildings, but doesn't represent the actual structure or landmark features of the real world), real world weather that imitates the actual weather reports with realistic blending and looks, realistic flight models that behave as the real aircraft they represent behave, and on and on we go. Some of these things MS ditched in support of expanding the current user base and instead, alienated the ones they already had. THIS is something that LR had better pay attention to as this is a great lesson that they can learn from and financially benefit. If they make the same mistake, they will feel it in their pocketbooks. Worse yet, we, the end user, will suffer.

[P47D 5]

Well now that we've all done a masterful job of explaining our points I think I will just call this topic quits and go fly some FSX... and work a little on X-Plane to see what I can get out of it.

[Muskoka 104]

I take it that someone said the "dont complain if you have the demo" as an inference that you don't have a right to complain about a feature that is broken unless you've forked over cash for something.

Aaron, I'm not trying to interfere with anyones right to speak / write. The point is, your trying a demo, that's also in Beta, that has also been offered for sale, which a lot of people have already paid for. Try the demo, if you like it great. If not, what have you lost, absoloutly nothing. So what is gained by coming here and picking it apart, nothing. I've tried hundreds of demos / beta programs over the years, and I don't go to a forum group to tear it apart if I don't like it. If I decide it's not for me, I move on.I think one of the problems here, is XPX should never have been offered as anything more than a early beta / demo. You beta test a program, then when the kinks are worked out, you offer it for sale, and then you provide a demo for perspective customers to try. The demo should be of a "final" product. Now I know Xplane is never really out of beta, but XPX should have been finished a little more than it is now.Edit: I think were just looking at things from different perspectives. I suppose that was a bit unfair on my part. Some are only using this as a demo, and some of us have paid for the program already. Both the demo and retail product should represent a final product and in this case they don't. That's my fault for drinking the coolaid too soon. Well it won't happen again.Glen Edited January 21, 2012 by Muskoka

[fvapres 7]

I agree that XP10 was rushed to market and is very incomplete (just look at my posts), but I feel that anyone trying a demo finding faults with it should voice their opinions as they see it. The product will never get better if it is seen that a handful of people that purchase a product are the only ones with valid complaints. The developers also need to know what shortcomings should be fixed to entice new customers and possibly the existing membership.That is not saying that it is acceptable that if you find the autogen incomplete or lacking realistic qualities to call the entire sim a "hunk of garbage" or the like. There are a lot of things XP10 does well that need to be built on in order to be the sim we all want and desire. Tact must be applied to our thoughts as I have tried. I think that XP10 has some good points that are a good step in the right direction and it is a good base product, but is complete by no means. My only gripe is that none of us know in what directions development will go or how far development will go on a particular track before it is seen as good enough for this version run.There are major letdowns in XP10, but there are also some upsides as well. I'm just hoping this new cloud system (that absolutely kills my performance on a cloudy day) is going to get a good fine tuning along with the autogen layouts and generation and the addition of landmarks in the BASE product. I don't want to have to go to the .org or any other such site and download 100 packages for all the landmarks that should be contained in the base scenery already.

[GoranM 3,771]

No one has a problem with voicing issues. But you'll find people have a problem when non-constructive statements are made without checking out the x plane blog and all the information one can gather from that.Statements such as...

What a mess!! The demo looks horrible and is still choppy. Probably under 10FPS. Also I cant figure out why the King Air veers all over the place once it takes off. Not smooth at all. I've checked the weather and tried to work with my joystick. Just rubbish.Why would I pay money for something that is no good?

These kinds of comments are not very well taken to by the x plane community.Constructive criticisms are perfectly fine.Personal opinions at how the sim is "rubbish" and "horrible" without finding out why, are a little over the line.Not meaning to pick on the "Whatever Dude", just making a point.

[falloutgamer65 0]

Why should ANYONE check out the X-plane blog ? Were the customers done a favor - e.g. by Laminar offering a discount from full price for v10 being a beta and an incomplete product ? Did the customers NOT PAY THE FULL PRICE ? Should they not EXPECT A COMPLETE BUG-FREE PRODUCT UPON SURRENDERING THEIR CASH IN FULL ?What EFFORT has Laminar put in to inform it's CURRENT USER BASE to inform and apologise to them for putting out a buggy, beta and incomplete product while DEMANDING FULL PRICE FOR IT ? Has Laminar sent emails to the customers informing them of what the current bugs and inadequacies are, what their plan for fixing those issues are and when ?THESE PROBLEMS ARE SOLELY CREATED BY LAMINAR. NOBODY ELSE !

Download the Demo, try it out, if you don't like it, don't buy it and wait till it gets better. At least laminar is generous enough to offer a demo for potential customers to try before they buy. And remember it is still in a BETA phase. why should you go to the X-plane developer blog? because that is where you will find what is happening and what they are fixing. If you were concerned with the state of X-plane, why wouldn't you go there first for information before ranting on a public forum? I'm sure laminar knows peoples gripes and are working on them, and just because they don't publicly hold your hand at the avsim forums and tell you it's going to be alright, that doesn't mean it will not get done. The customers paid the full price, sure, but guess what? it includes frequent, FREE updates all throughout the version 10 cycle, so you ARE getting a FULL simulator for your money. expecting a bug free product at initial release is just absolutely absurd and just stupid, especially in the simulator market. may I recall that MS didn't release a bug free product when they released FSX? and look, it is still a buggy product today! although laminar has not gone to great lengths to personally notify their customers, you can find a lot of information on their website, which would be the first place i would go if i was looking for an answer.. along with the X-plane developer blog. obviously you have a grudge against X-plane and Laminar, but it is not solely their fault that people are uninformed about what they are getting. Some people are just too lazy not to do research before they know what they are getting into. others are impatient and think that everything can be fixed over night. Sure i understand that people are upset, but this is how every X-plane release has gone down (as far as i'm aware of), and while frustrating at times, it is a good way to make X-plane the best flight simulator it can be, by exposing it to people so they can find the bugs and address peoples wants and needs. Nothing is set in stone in X-plane, things are constantly evolving and changing and becoming better.

[greggerm 312]

At least laminar is generous enough to offer a demo for potential customers to try before they buy.

A demo that is geographically hand-tailored with scenery, textures, and elements in an attempt to show off the products potential. When you leave Seattle, you enter.... Seattle. All over the globe. The demo is misleading. I know of several folks who bought the product with the incorrect expectation that it "had" to get a little better when you left Seattle... alas, they got Seattle over and over again.

And remember it is still in a BETA phase.

Show me where on the demo download page, OR on the PURCHASE page, that it is mentioned that you are purchasing a beta product. Although it's clear once you buy it, and if you read various forums that it is beta, but a (new) customer will have no idea that it is in such incomplete shape.

why should you go to the X-plane developer blog?because that is where you will find what is happening and what they are fixing.If you were concerned with the state of X-plane, why wouldn't you go there first for information before ranting on a public forum?

The X-Plane site buries the developer blogs. You practically need to visit a forum to even know they exist. In addition, the blogs have very rarely mentioned what is broken, what is missing, what they might fix, and when they might fix it. They've posted "how things work" and broad based "We want to do this, but we don't know how", but I don't see a darn thing anywhere about when they will actually fix or finish things.

Some people are just too lazy not to do research before they know what they are getting into.

Bugs? Expected in all new releases. I think reasonable people will agree with that. When you purchase a software product, there is also reasonable expectation that you are purchasing a relatively complete package. Not something which will have base-level components missing and to be finished later (*or at the very least, disclosure of this fact). Expecting new customers to dive into forum reading, development blog reading, and the apparent history of X-Plane before making their purchase is a little excessive.There's no telling how many customers have been put off and disappointed by either the demo, or their actual purchase when the saw the state of affairs. Do people like it/tolerate it? Sure thing! Have fun! But I'd imagine that the majority of folks who tried the demo dismissed it as a second rate simulator due to the first impression it gives.As a big simulator dork, I so wanted XP10 to live up to the expectations that the marketing and buzz generated. Instead, it rolled out emaciated and incomplete. Flyable, sure... but missing any sort of spark or feature which differenciates it from either previous versions of XP or any other sim on the market today - and flat out missing features which have been in competitors products for a decade or more. Laminar Research enjoys a very forgiving fanbase.

[m_av 0]

Nothing is set in stone in X-plane, things are constantly evolving and changing and becoming better.

Let's start by saying :1. May be somethings need to be set in stone.2. Don't fix something that wasn't broken !3. An update implies "New, Improved, or BOTH "NEW AND IMPROVED".4. Give me a BUG-FREE, COMPLETE PRODUCT and $crew the updates if you are going to hide behind your incapability to fix or improve something.5. Don't remove a feature or two just because Laminar is not too thrilled with it. Even if Laminar offers these updates for free, IT DOES NOT GIVE LAMINAR the right to remove something that some or many users may be using or find useful.The buggy incomplete product in X-plane v10 is not the users' fault. IT IS VERY DEFINETLY LAMINAR'S FAULT AND RESPONSIBILITY.

Laminar Research enjoys a very forgiving fanbase.

Laminar takes advantage of it's very forgiving base. It should take these issues HEAD ON and address them publicly instead of hiding behind their blogs, over which they exert complete control.Is that too much to ask, Laminar ?

[JasonHarris 96]

Another thing that they would be wise having during beta phases is an official forum. Once again, I can't think of any beta product that did not run an official forum for people to post their views. I don't think x-plane.org is official as I dont see any links to it from LR's site. Also I hear a lot about threads that are not exactly pro xplane being shut down over there. While that in itself may be OK for a fan site I have not seen that kind of thing happen on official sites, which we don't seem to have. That doesnt seem to give any reasonable outlet for people except forums like this and we all know where that goes..

[Tierborn 188]

Let's start by saying :1. May be somethings need to be set in stone.2. Don't fix something that wasn't broken !3. An update implies "New, Improved, or BOTH "NEW AND IMPROVED".4. Give me a BUG-FREE, COMPLETE PRODUCT and $crew the updates if you are going to hide behind your incapability to fix or improve something.5. Don't remove a feature or two just because Laminar is not too thrilled with it. Even if Laminar offers these updates for free, IT DOES NOT GIVE LAMINAR the right to remove something that some or many users may be using or find useful.The buggy incomplete product in X-plane v10 is not the users' fault. IT IS VERY DEFINETLY LAMINAR'S FAULT AND RESPONSIBILITY.Laminar takes advantage of it's very forgiving base. It should take these issues HEAD ON and address them publicly instead of hiding behind their blogs, over which they exert complete control.Is that too much to ask, Laminar ?

what the heck do you mean that laminar doesnt have the right to modify a feature in its software .. please explain better your rationale.

[GoranM 3,771]

what the heck do you mean that laminar doesnt have the right to modify a feature in its software .. please explain better your rationale.

I had to read his statement at least 4 times before realizing he actually posted it! Then I nearly fell off my chair laughing.