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I think it is a time for a little perspective. This is what I flew, along with a few thousand others, circa 1983 or 1984. And you know, I was extremely excited to have this sim on my Apple ][c. This is a rendition of the Lear Jet at Meigs... How far we have come.A little history... AVSIM started a boycott of FS in 1998 - FS98. Why? Because we felt that there were too many things that went unfixed from the previous version, and that the user community was being ignored in their complaints and Microsoft's recognition of faults in FS98.You know what? The boycott did not do a thing to get FS98 removed from the shelves or from the hands of thousands of simmers around the world who were willing to take the next step in the evolution of our hobby. Admittedly, in that respect, AVSIM was short sighted.Keep it in perspective folks... Every step, no matter how it may appear to us at the moment, is indeed a step that we may only see the results or impact of a year or two, or more, from now.

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Hi! Tom, maybe you did not see my request in the other thread so I'll ask again in the thread you started here...Quote from you, http://forum.avsim.n...-to-the-public/Don't shoot the messenger guys... I have a lot to say about this too, but I will hold off until reports start coming in from Las Vegas next week. The las Vegas show is now over and I'm very anxious to hear about what you have to say.Thank you.

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I guess what's annoying is MS won't talk to us in a timely and reliable manner, communication being an essential ingredient to any relationship (human, corporate and even machine - witness the AF447 crash).Like it or not, we hardcore simmers have a relationship of sorts with Microsoft via FS going back decades in some cases with certainly many thousands of dollars spent on this hobby, as well as many thousands of hours spent in a den away from family and earthbound friends.If MSFS were a business application, why surely MS would be far more proficient at issuing timely and accurate press releases to manage customer expectations.Alas we're only the raggedy FS lot to them."Cheers",- jahman.

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Are you hinting at the possibly of another Flight SIMULATOR down the road? In that case, we shouldn't preoccupy or concern ourselves with FLIGHT (the game)
I have said in a previous post or my blog, I forget which, but will say it again here...The FLIGHT Team leadership did not state that they would develop beyond FSX, nor did they say they would not. We asked that question directly, for all the obvious reasons. You draw your own conclusions.
The las Vegas show is now over and I'm very anxious to hear about what you have to say.
Alain, you need to read my blog. I think I have put my thoughts forward here as well as there. If not what you were expecting, don't hesitate to ask.

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You draw your own conclusions.
That is very dangerous in this place. :(

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That is very dangerous in this place. :(
Think of it as an opportunity for the half empty / half full crowd to show themselves!

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Alain, you need to read my blog. I think I have put my thoughts forward here as well as there. If not what you were expecting, don't hesitate to ask.
Sorry Tom, I did not think about your blog, I'll take a look at it.Thank you.

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the only reason (in my opinion) that MS would have for purposefully being vague and ambiguous in such a situation is if they themselves did not know or was unsure to the answer of said question. Perhaps they are keeping it open-ended and want to see how it goes.
Spot on!
would it not be a GOOD thing that FLIGHT was shunned from the community that it abandoned first?
Not necessarily: MS could add what we hard-core raggedy lot need to MS Flight, ... at some point in the yonder future.Cheers,- jahman.

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Just insisting a disagreeing! It doesn't matter if the almighty God spoke!
What does that mean?

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What does that mean?
That he's had too many adult beverages before posting. :(

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That he's had too many adult beverages before posting. :(
:(

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The FLIGHT Team leadership did not state that they would develop beyond FSX, nor did they say they would not. We asked that question directly, for all the obvious reasons. You draw your own conclusions.
Unlike the naysayers here, I still believe that Flight is a simulator, and that it is being developed for both gamers and for hard-core flight simmers.What we will have on release day is going to be a half full glass, because the Free version is just the core.Suppose for a moment that Flight was designed (at its core) to replace FSX (as some of us still believe). Perhaps the reason for not answering the question, was that Flight's growth as a simulator is dependent on how successful its DLC sales are. And no one knows how that will turn out.If I am correct, the success of Flight might just be our last foreseeable chance of progressing beyond FSX (at least from Microsoft). And the members here who are ranting against Flight, are damaging their only real chance of getting a simulator that could eventually replace FSX. Too many here are not willing to look beyond the arcade aspects of Flight (which are not all that different from the arcade aspects of FSX), and see the potential of what Flight can become.What is gained by tearing down Flight, because of what you THINK it won't ever have or won't ever be? Nothing at all, other than perhaps convincing others to never give it a chance (which could even contribute to Flight's failure).What is gained by supporting Flight? Perhaps helping to ensure the success of a new simulator platform that is fully capable of eventually surpassing FSX.Based on my instincts, I believe that Flight is going to surprise a LOT of people on this forum.

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Rough translation...."Just insisting a (on) disagreeing! It doesn't matter if the almighty God spoke!"He is just saying that the person he quoted is doing no more than insisting on being disagreeable even though it does not mean a thing to MS to actually do this. Seems pretty clear to me except for the one mispelling.It also appears that he may be right...... :( Bob

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Based on my instincts, I believe that Flight is going to surprise a LOT of people on this forum.
I've been an avid FS enthusiast since 1998 and every version delivered had major dissappointments in the area of lagging behind the existing technology of the times. While the hope for a change in this long trend of lagging behind the available existing hardware (full multi-cores, graphics card utilization, 64 bit, true game coding, etc.) ran the highest this time, the dissappointment did too when Flight came out as a stripped down same ol' - same ol' that only runs good because it was stripped clean. By the way, has anyone seen or heard anyone claim that it will run on more than one monitor besides, and with detachable components ???That said... i hope you are right.Bob - Las Cruces, NM

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Well, there is somthing about this business model that troubles the heck out of me.What if Microsoft decided to bring in some 3PD entities and decides to fund their entire effort creating content, and decides how much the "skills" are worth: the cut.What if they never release an SDK and restrict these brought-in 3PDs from ever making public any aspect of any SDK that might exist?What happens to the ones left on the outside?And the most insidious aspect of this would be the lack of an opportunity, the lack of impetus given to someoneto poke around under the hood: to learn what makes these technologies tick so to speak: the insidiousness lies in theslow strangulation of creativity and the impetus to learn someting new. Without an SDK I would never have tried to learn 3D modelling: GMAX. I have since moved on to Houdini. I am forever grateful that others- Thanks again Fr. Bill_if you remember_ to stimulate myinnate curiousity.This current model leaves many years of progress behind. The fact that there are other sims to fill in the blank right now: X-Plane, DCS,1C, and other indies kinds of skews the outlook for the future,

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I still believe that Flight is a simulator, and that it is being developed for both gamers and for hard-core flight simmers.
Flight's growth as a simulator is dependent on how successful its DLC sales are. And no one knows how that will turn out.
These two statements of course contradict each other: Either MS is developing a serious sim, or it isn't. (And the bit about MS adopting a "wait and see" attitude is part of "it isn't".)
the members here who are ranting against Flight, are damaging their only real chance of getting a simulator that could eventually replace FSX
I am merely highlighting serious simmer aspects of MS Dec, 8th 2010 press release that up to now have not been complied with.Note that:
  1. I do hope MS will eventually deliver the serious simmer aspects of Flight we all want (hopefully sooner than later), and
  2. I do wish MS will close the PR gap it created with the Dec. 8, 2010 serious simmer promises with an explanatory press release.

What is gained by tearing down Flight, because of what you THINK it won't ever have or won't ever be?
The mistake you are making is believing that criticism is being levelled at Flight for what it will be. Rest assured the criticism is for what Flight is today. And in the absence of an explanatory press release, that's all we can do.In the absence of any other information from MS beyond said press release and the functionality of the Flight beta as widely reported (read: arcade game), any hopes for added functionality are pure, unadulterated speculation.Finally do note that the uncertainty created by MS alone by lack of hard, reliable information hurts add-on developers the hardest for they are not able to plan (and fund) the development of the aircraft and sceneries we all like for Flight. And the lack of an SDK of course helps drive that nail all the way in.Cheers,- jahman.

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Thanks Tom for your posting.Here is my perspective for what it's worth.Currently I think we are very lucky in that we already have Flight Simulators from Microsoft called FS9 & FSX which have a huge range of add-ons for all areas (aircraft, scenery, utilities, weather, etc.). Sure, we would like the code fixed, improved or overhauled but right now we can go and simulate flight in almost any aircraft we want from any location we choose in any weather condition we desire. We also have XP10 and P3D so we have a great choice available to us right now.In addition we will soon have a product being released by Microsoft called Flight which could be a game, a flight simulator, or both. Nobody really knows, and to some degree that includes Microsoft, how Flight will turn out. I'm sure Microsoft have plans and hopes for Flight but I personally think that it is an experiment for them, because it deviates from past directions, and is therefore subject to change.I think we should continue to enjoy FSX (or FS9, XP10 or whatever you fly) now and treat MS Flight as a new wine to be tasted. It could mature over the coming years and be the best wine ever or it could turn out to be a flop. If it isn't the wine both we and Microsoft want, maybe Microsoft will try again - Flight 2? Maybe Microsoft already have a backup plan - who knows?But no matter how Flight turns out we can enjoy Flight Simulation now, like we have been for many years, whilst we wait and see what the future brings us :(.~ Martin

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The FLIGHT Team leadership did not state that they would develop beyond FSX, nor did they say they would not. We asked that question directly, for all the obvious reasons. You draw your own conclusions.
Hello Tom,call me stupid but I cannot draw any conclusions from the above. Still in the soup. I don't understand why this secrecy from the FLIGHT Team. I stated this question in another post too

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Wise words, Tom.I myself am only VERY HAPPY with MS and MS Flight and I don't understand why a lot of people show so much hatred towards them. First of all: MS gave us FS. All those years of happy simming would not have been possible without MS. Secondly, MS didn't HAVE to create MS Flight. But they did. So why be angry about it? Be glad that flying on the PC still is alive.Things can ONLY get better... and because of that I don't understand all the anger. if things could get worse, then I'd understand it if people weren't happy. But not now.

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Unlike the naysayers here, I still believe that Flight is a simulator, and that it is being developed for both gamers and for hard-core flight simmers.What we will have on release day is going to be a half full glass, because the Free version is just the core.Suppose for a moment that Flight was designed (at its core) to replace FSX (as some of us still believe). Perhaps the reason for not answering the question, was that Flight's growth as a simulator is dependent on how successful its DLC sales are. And no one knows how that will turn out.If I am correct, the success of Flight might just be our last foreseeable chance of progressing beyond FSX (at least from Microsoft). And the members here who are ranting against Flight, are damaging their only real chance of getting a simulator that could eventually replace FSX. Too many here are not willing to look beyond the arcade aspects of Flight (which are not all that different from the arcade aspects of FSX), and see the potential of what Flight can become.What is gained by tearing down Flight, because of what you THINK it won't ever have or won't ever be? Nothing at all, other than perhaps convincing others to never give it a chance (which could even contribute to Flight's failure).What is gained by supporting Flight? Perhaps helping to ensure the success of a new simulator platform that is fully capable of eventually surpassing FSX.Based on my instincts, I believe that Flight is going to surprise a LOT of people on this forum.
Excellent analytical skills.

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By the way, has anyone seen or heard anyone claim that it will run on more than one monitor besides, and with detachable components ???
Quote: - "Long-time flyers will only be missing the option to use multiple monitors, at least when the game releases. According to Microsoft, that is likely to change in the future. Like Microsoft Flight Simulator, MS Flight will work with all 3rd party flight controllers." (kotaku.com).

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But given its freemium business model, and the fact that it caters neither to hard core simmers nor entirely to arcade casual gamers, I doubt FLIGHT will ever be able to reach critical mass and really takeoff.
But given its freemium business model, and the fact that it caters both hard core simmers and arcade casual gamers, FLIGHT will be able to reach the mass and really takeoff. :(

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These two statements of course contradict each other: Either MS is developing a serious sim, or it isn't.
Wrong.
I'm sure Microsoft have plans and hopes for Flight but I personally think that it is an experiment for them, because it deviates from past directions, and is therefore subject to change.
Right."Overall, the game is a lot more experimental than past Flight Simulator games sold at retail. But offering the game as a free-to-play title opens up new options for experimentation and innovation, Howard said. “This is the right way to deliver an experience that reaches a broader number of people,” he said. “It’s a new muscle we are exercising.”" (venturebeat.com).

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FLIGHT is a product failure that neither caters to the hard core simmers
Quote:The MS FLIGHT Sim - My ThoughtsPosted by Tom Allensworth:- "Just prior to Christmas a small group of people representing various organizations in the flight sim community were invited by Microsoft to attend a meeting in Redmond, Washington. The purpose of this meeting was to preview Microsoft's most recent and soon to be released entre' into the "Flight Game" world; MS FLIGHT. We were given an entire day to view, operate, and ask questions of the leadership of the FLIGHT team, including Joshua Howard, the studio lead for this program."Do you really believe that Microsoft invited "the flight sim community" for presenting an arcade game?
The "masses" that MS is trying so desperately to appeal to have short attention spans and probably would get bored of FLIGHT after the second DLC.
Maybe.Quote Tom Allensworth: - "The lack of profitability with FSX lead to the enevitable;......"Do you think Microsoft want more "lack of profitability". Do you prefer "No more Flight(simulator) from Microsoft"?If you don't like Flight, use the alternatives!

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I've been an avid FS enthusiast since 1998 and every version delivered had major dissappointments in the area of lagging behind the existing technology of the times.
I've been an FS flyer since FS 5 and have never been dissapointed. For me each new version has been a great leap forward. FLIGHT is the first version of the series that has triggered my negative mode.

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