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Rush1169

Flight is to Audio CDs as FSX is to Cassette Tapes

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FSX is a Cassette Player and Flight is a CD Player.MS really has no where else to go within the limitations of the architecture. What would you expect FSXI to have that you don't already have considering your 3rd party add-ons? Remember, to keep all your add-ons compatible with FSXI, MS will have to stay within the confines of it's "cassette tape medium". What would you expect MS to add to FSX to justify FSXI at a $59 price point? Better ATC? We have that. Better mesh? We have that. Better planes? We have that. Better weather? Got it. Better graphics? Today's hardware still can't push FSX to max settings. Virtual airlines? Done.The reality is, Microsoft has no choice but to move platforms from a cassette player to CD player architecture. Sadly, 3rd party add-ons aren't going to work with the new architecture. From a business standpoint, it's certainly to Microsoft's advantage that 3rd party stuff doesn't work because if it did, we'd download Flight, install all the add-ons we've already bought, and be left with no reason whatsoever to spend another penny. Imagine if CD players could play cassette tapes as good, in every respect, to CD. Nobody would have ever bought a CD.Flight will eventually be everything FSX is today and then some, but it will be expensive just as it is today to take FSX from the base package to the PMDG+Orbx+Radar Contact+Real Weather+Carenado "enhanced product". You will have to buy, yet again, the essentially exact same pieces of software that you've already bought, just like when you finally replaced your James Taylor cassette with CD. What we as users get for doing the upgrade is a better format. More stable, more fidelity, and better framerates. When audio CD was introduced, the marketing drive wasn't to tell everyone that they have the priviledge of buying all the same software they already have. The promise was a better way to present the software. Just like MS isn't going to announce to us that the $500 we've already spent on our FSX cassettes will be useless on the Flight CD player.If Microsoft came out and simply said, "We're releasing a new way to play your music (add-ons), but you have to buy your music again". Well, that would be dumb. Just like when audio CD players came to market, the big marketing push wasn't to get everyone excited about replacing their $10,000 worth of tapes, rather the audio CD push was for the better format. Many held on to their tapes for years afterwards, many converted immediately (too the extent possible), and the majority bought their absolute favorite CDs initially and expanded their collection with new releases and "golden oldies" as time and budget allowed. We'll see the same pattern with Flight. Some of you will stick with FSX, some will go with Flight and enhance it with everything released, while the majority will steadily enhance the product, starting with the favorite add-ons and as they come available. Just like when CD was released, one could not, even if they wanted to, buy the CD version of every cassette they owned as it took some time for the conversion to take place. While we waited on our favorite cassette to be converted to CD, we had a cassette player and CD player in our rack. So too with Flight and FSX.The bottom line is that there was *nothing* MS could do to make FSXI as a compelling upgrade for a user who had FSX+Choice Add-Ons, especially at a $59 price point. The reality is it's time to move from cassette to CD. It means we will have to buy stuff we've already bought. Some of us will stick to cassettes, some will embrace the new format, and the rest of us will slowly, steadily replace our cassettes with CDs. The advantage is we'll get a better player. Many of our cassettes won't be available on CD the first day but also many, compelling, new CDs won't ever be made on tape.--------------------Side note: For the folks that say none of this will happen because there is not an SDK, as George Michaels would say, "You gotta have faith, faith, faith" (album available on vinyl, cassette, or CD)

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I'm not saying I won't or can't be wrong. I guess we will both see soon enough how it plays out. It will be interesting to watch, either FLIGHT morph into something great (I doubt it) or die a death of fading irrelevancy by never getting off the ground in the first place.
Ditto. Flight could end up the BetaMax of simulators :) The best news is we have FSX and all our cassettes and those will work for a long time to come.

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Using your music analogy, as MS have discarded most if not all of the 3rd party developers, I just hope we're not just limited to purchasing Justin Bieber music on the new CD format :(.

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Bottom line is after Microsoft canned ACES and sold their FSX/ESP code to LM to make a quick buck, they turned around later and decided it might be worth a try to throw a bucket of money at the old FSX code to monetize it even further.FLIGHT development team probably had no idea how expensive it is to create FTX-like landclass and terrain, and since the whole project was pitifully underfunded, they could only afford to do Hawaii and had to resort to pushing out a half-baked product under a freemium, pay as you play, DLC model. They tried to contract this out to Orbx but backed away when Orbx told them just how expensive it would be for them to do FTX style terrain for the entire world. Under this arrangement, they had no choice but to do a closed in-game app store concept and negate the possibility of ever releasing a free SDK.After the 3PD demurred Microsoft's proprietary business proposal, the FLIGHT team had to console-ize and arcade-ize FLIGHT even more, in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator masses and get some of that low hanging fruit so as hopefully make up for the revenue lost from the hard core simming community that they decided to abandon.In the end FLIGHT is a product that is suffering from fragmented and fractured identity crisis, trying to be everything to everyone but end up being nothing to no one. At best FLIGHT will evolve and transform into Skydrift and I would EXPECT fantasy aircraft, as depicted in Skydrift, to hit the DLC market and come to dominate. No, people won't escalate in their interests, their hands will be forced by the gravity of the lowest common denominator. At worst, FLIGHT will never attract enough casual gamers to reach critical mass and hold their attentions long enough for them to purchase enough DLCs to warrant Microsoft spending more money to fund and develop the game even further. Microsoft should just pull the plug now, it's a sunk cost.
Wow... Never looked at it that way...Quite a realistic and sad explanation of such a product that has the potential to be a win... Upsetting to see MS fail on this..

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FLIGHT might not be the CD, or even better, the mp3 of flight simulators. FLIGHT could easily be the MiniDisc. Time will tell...

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FLIGHT development team probably had no idea how expensive it is to create FTX-like landclass and terrain, and since the whole project was pitifully underfunded, they could only afford to do Hawaii and had to resort to pushing out a half-baked product under a freemium, pay as you play, DLC model.[...]After the 3PD demurred Microsoft's proprietary business proposal, the FLIGHT team had to console-ize and arcade-ize FLIGHT even more,
No, that is a very unrealistic view of project management. The idea that a spectacular failure in creating scenery somehow forced MS to release only Hawaii, as well as the idea that 3PD vendors have such a large influence over MS' business decisions, is, in my opinion, absurd.The marketplace, free base game + DLC concept, very likely existed before serious work was ever started on that project.In another thread, you even went so far as to speculate that MS initially wanted to do the entire planet, but managed to do only Hawaii's Big Island.Land surface of the earth: ca. 150,000,000 km2Size of Big Island: 10,430 km2If the Flight team had actually failed by a factor of 14381, there would not have been some change to another business model. The project as well as the team would have been canned exactly as ACES was.
Quite a realistic and sad explanation
Sad yes, realistic rather not.

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The question is not really the format that Flight would be representing, compared to FSX, (CD, MP3, etc...) but rather the contents found in that format. As previously stated, it appears (so far) that what we're getting is "Beiber" and not "Beatles"... ;) Hopefully the new albums will be more mature than what is being played on the radio so far...

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Then how do you explain-away this discrepancy?
Not necessary, as I don't see one. Your sentences in red are your own assumptions, which I don't share. I have yet to see any good reason to doubt the parts that you made bold.

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Guest jahman
FSX is a Cassette Player and Flight is a CD Player.
Apples to oranges: A horrible analogy.
In the end FLIGHT is a product that is suffering from fragmented and fractured identity crisis, trying to be everything to everyone but end up being nothing to no one.
Exactly!
Not necessary, as I don't see one. Your sentences in red are your own assumptions, which I don't share. I have yet to see any good reason to doubt the parts that you made bold.
Forget the bits in red, how about the following then, straight from MS's PR Department:
We want to directly address the concern that by dropping the “Simulator” from the name, we’re dumbing down the experience. Quite the contrary! We’ve developed on the “simulation” aspect for many years and have no intention of losing that legacy.
Remember, you can't adress what Flight migt be in the future because you have no idea! (And likely MS doesn't either), so just limit yourself to comparing how Flight beta, as widely reported, compares with the previous quote today. It doesn't.Cheers,- jahman.

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[RE: Rush1169's Cassette to CD Analogy] Apples to oranges: A horrible analogy.
Well crud. I thought it was pretty good. I stand corrected, yet again.

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just limit yourself to comparing how Flight beta, as widely reported, compares with the previous quote today. It doesn't.
Yes, I have read various rumours and hints. Given that these are not supposed to be out there, are only part of a picture at best, and must be picked up by reading between lines..... my conclusions are of course, close to worthless. A "feeling" rather than fact.That said, my reading-between-lines indicates that the arcade aspect is in the content, and not necessarily lack of capability of the core software.

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There have been a number of threads here at AVSIM where MSFS users expressed a general desire for Microsoft to move away from backwards compatibility. I think the majority of us realized that a fresh start had the potential to vastly improve MSFS as a platform for the future. Even if it cost up money in our favorite upgrades, I think most simmers seemed pretty reasonable about this approach.However, for the core audience the value of MSFS has--for many years--been in community and 3rd party enhancements. I think this is the area where there is the most concern. The initial word from developers does not bode well. Flight might be a fun sim, it might even grow into something not far removed from FSX out-of-the-box in terms of features. But, without a groundswell of third party support, it will never come close to what we have on our hard drives currently.And, honestly, the graphics and performance of Flight are not "holy cow, how can I ever go back to FSX!". That fact actually eases the pain for me a fair bit. I have a tuned FSX with some great scenery and great aircraft, and I will continue to get support from some of my favorite 3rd party developers (such as Orbx). So, things are uncertain. We don't know with certainty what the next 12-24 months will bring. But, I'd put good odds on FSX remaining the platform of choice and I think that Flight might be the last flight sim we see from Microsoft. Bummer.

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And, honestly, the graphics and performance of Flight are not "holy cow, how can I ever go back to FSX!".
Yep, that's what happend when FSX came out. Many stayed with FS2004 (and remain to this day). FSXI, with 3PD add-ons remaining largely compatible, would have suffered the same plight with even fewer convertees. MS took FSX to it's limits in terms of features-for-the-price and there simply isn't much else to do with it. Heck, there's not a whole lot 3PDs can do that even they haven't done, much less some start-up coming on the scene and taking the risk of trying to "one up" Orbx or PMDG or Carenado. The established 3PDs should rejoice at the mere thought that *maybe* they will be able to sell their existing inventory again as well as to new blood of those who were our age when we first took control of the yoke (I was 13 and now 42). . .

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Jimmy Angel, on 16 January 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:And, honestly, the graphics and performance of Flight are not "holy cow, how can I ever go back to FSX!".Yep, that's what happend when FSX came out. Many stayed with FS2004 (and remain to this day).
Excellent analysis.I stayed with FS9 because there just weren't enough revolutionary advancements in FSX that could make me decide to abandon my investment in FS9, and start all over again with FSX. Instead of exciting the entire FS9 fan base to move to FSX, MS only succeeded in splitting an already fragile market. It would have been better if they didn't just rush to bring out the next version within the time frame that marketing said they should, but rather wait a bit longer until the studio had actually written a true "next-gen" version of FS.

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Ditto. Flight could end up the BetaMax of simulators :)
Don't know if Betamax is the right analogy since Sony retooled the format into Betacam and later Betacam SP which dominted the professional video production industry for almost two decades.

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Don't know if Betamax is the right analogy since Sony retooled the format into Betacam and later Betacam SP which dominted the professional video production industry for almost two decades.
. . .or maybe it is the right analogy . . .lol

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Cassettes get ate up too :( by tape players . Flight Simulator X it was not the flying was the problem it was some of the things they did under da hood that was a problem. Have to tweak it to death to get running correctly. Flight Simulator X it was running into bottle necks in terms of technical design, and its was poorly designed for most computers people have, and that why a lot people stuck with fs2004. In the last 2 years FSX is actually gotten to the point a mid priced new computer can run it decent. CD get starched too and newer not always easier to fiddle with or work with. Give free download a chance may get tiki-girl included.

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