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Alan_A

Handling blowback: a different approach

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I'm hesitant to post this because I agree with the concern, expressed by others, that this is turning into an ORBX-bashing forum. I'd rather not see that happen.

 

However, I am interested - always have been, ever since the dispute started - in exploring different and possibly better ways for all of us to handle things. Let's call it a professional interest on my part.

 

So, in that spirit, here's a quick example from another world I participate in: classical music. On Monday, the Metropolitan Opera, a major international organization based in New York, announced this.

 

Then, on Tuesday, after a huge negative public reaction, they reversed themselves.

 

Beyond the mere fact that they reversed themselves, I thought two statements by the general manager (in effect, the CEO) were interesting: "I think I made a mistake," and "The Metropolitan Opera only exists with the good will of the public."

 

These statements - and the quick, complete reversal of a bad decision - did not cause the Metropolitan Opera to shatter and go out of existence. Nor did the world stop turning on its axis. What was accomplished is that the original the original bad decision became, at most, a two-day story. Now everyone can move on.

 

I bring it up here in the hope that everyone reading this forum - on both sides of the dispute to some extent, but of course I mean one side in particular - might consider the example and think about some changes in direction that would serve to move everyone back together.

 

Submitted for whatever it's worth.

 

Back, now, to your original programming, already in progress...

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Nice post Alan but if you think that calling a spade a spade ans not spreading lies is bashing Orbx ....well.... so be it.

 

I have not seen anybody here bashing Orbx products, me first, I always said that Orbx as some of the best scenery for FSX as I have a lot of them myself.

 

I remember a post overthere where the OP complained about a specific new Orbx scenery taxing his PC a lot (bad perf.), as far as I can remember the answer from the top management was that this particular scenery would be best used with new PC's hardware in 2 to 3 years down the road for best result....my own reaction after reading the answer was ...what??....so the poster raised his concerned by asking why this info was not disclosed to him and others before buying the scenery....should I ask you to guess what happened to the thread?

 

So, the difference between what happened in the link you posted and what happened at Orbx is very different, why would you ask, because Peter Gelb was man enough to say “I think I made a mistake.”.....

 

Like I said in another post on this forum ..."It's always easyer for some of us to show somebody the door than having to admit we messed up."

 

I would be the first one in line to buy more product from Orbx if what happened in you link happened at Orbx....I'm not holding my breath.

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Reversing the bad decisions that produced a blow back that produced a chain reaction of even more bad decisions should be reversed, all of them. No one wants refunds or blood. A simple "We made a mistake, in fact a lot of them. We are sorry, so let's move on and see if we can put this all behind us." That would work a miracle in public relations. Anything short of that would fall short of the landslide positive result it would produce.

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No one wants refunds or blood. A simple "We made a mistake, in fact a lot of them. We are sorry, so let's move on and see if we can put this all behind us." That would work a miracle in public relations.

 

Yes, absolutely, couldn't agree more.

 

I'd like to think the Met Opera situation could provide a model. I'm not optimistic about it, of course - I'm rarely optimistic. But I can hope.

 

For anyone from the other faculty that reads this and is inclined to dismiss it, I'd only mention that while opera might seem strange and arcane, the Met is a really big deal - one of the biggest arts organizations in the world, with a $300 million US annual budget, some very wealthy, powerful people on its board, and, as you can see, intense media and fan scrutiny. So this is really a high-level corporate example. The stakes are high, and that makes it even more impressive that they were able to reverse things after such a bad initial misstep. Also worth noting - the Met sells a very expensive entertainment product that people can easily decide to do without. Management seems to feel that customer relationships matter.

 

I'm sure others can decide for themselves if there's a lesson here that applies.

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Reversing the bad decisions that produced a blow back that produced a chain reaction of even more bad decisions should be reversed, all of them. No one wants refunds or blood. A simple "We made a mistake, in fact a lot of them. We are sorry, so let's move on and see if we can put this all behind us." That would work a miracle in public relations. Anything short of that would fall short of the landslide positive result it would produce.

+1

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Yes, absolutely, couldn't agree more.

 

I'd like to think the Met Opera situation could provide a model. I'm not optimistic about it, of course - I'm rarely optimistic. But I can hope.

 

For anyone from the other faculty that reads this and is inclined to dismiss it, I'd only mention that while opera might seem strange and arcane, the Met is a really big deal - one of the biggest arts organizations in the world, with a $300 million US annual budget, some very wealthy, powerful people on its board, and, as you can see, intense media and fan scrutiny. So this is really a high-level corporate example. The stakes are high, and that makes it even more impressive that they were able to reverse things after such a bad initial misstep. Also worth noting - the Met sells a very expensive entertainment product that people can easily decide to do without. Management seems to feel that customer relationships matter.

 

I'm sure others can decide for themselves if there's a lesson here that applies.

 

And that's why Peter Gelb said “I think I made a mistake.”......he knew his followers would have put their money where their mouth is.

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I see where all of you are coming from. but is it worth it to keep unearthing this corpse just to smell the decay?

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My reasons for posting are explained in the first two paragraphs of the first post. I don't think they're equivalent to, "Oh, boy, here's an opportunity to unearth this corpse just to smell the decay!"

 

You can certainly disagree with my rationale. As I said in so many words, I was hesitant about it myself. But I did in fact have a rationale, which was somewhat different than the one you tried to put in my mouth.

 

Agreed that it's best to move on.

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Alan your post comes with good intentions, thank you and it's good to see you.

 

Personally you posting here shows that you don't think the people here are winning, time wasting customers that have nothing better to do than post over here.

I did not spend 3 years on the Orbx forums for nothing. I got banned with out even so much of a warning. Alan look over my 1800 posts and judge yourself.

God only knows why Alain and Stephen got banned.

But I think you know this is not right or you would not have posted here. Like I said you came with good intentions.

 

Kind Regards

David

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For those of us without a clue as to what is being discussed, could anyone provide a synopsis or perhaps a link?

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For those of us without a clue as to what is being discussed, could anyone provide a synopsis or perhaps a link?

 

Prepare yourself for an extremely one sided story in which everyone here has done absolutely nothing wrong

 

Also carefully count the number of people posting. It is a lot of the same names over and over

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Well, commodor, you're a new name. And you seem to feel there's more to the story. Why not tell it instead of just sniping?

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Ok after reading this forum before making an account I will give summary in comparison to a store

 

-Company sets up store and customers arrive

-After a few year there is a sale that makes some people unhappy

-People complaining about it for a week and start becoming hostile towards the company

-Company uninvites some customers from the store. It is probably not many based on how many people are here

-Customers decided instead of finding a new store they go across the street and begin protesting every day. There protests are very direct and name specific people. The store does not respond, they do not insult the people across the street, they continue there business like before

-The protest continue even months after the people were uninvited. They want an apology. But the store obviously does not want them back inside. The store is now quiet and peaceful. The only problems are in the place across the street where the protest have run out of things to protest about, so they pick on every issue possible.

-A store worker who was laid off joins in out of spite toward his former employer

 

This is how I see it. Perhaps others sense there is a post called "Move on".

 

It is also interesting. Many of you say you do not have a care in the world for what happen at ORBX but you hang around here all day long. If you do not care why are you not going to other vendor like Aerosoft and Fltampa instead of hanging around here all the time

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Commodor -

 

Your verion of events isn't off base. Let me try my own quick summary. I'll try to be as neutral and factual as possible, and keep to forum rules (like not naming individuals). If I get it wrong, Stephen can either edit my post or shut me down, whichever works best.

 

The story in brief...

 

-- Over the years, a variety of individuals had disputes with ORBX for a variety of reasons. Probably nothing happened that hasn't happened with a lot of other FSX vendors and their customers. I wasn't a party to any of it so can't comment on who was in the right.

 

-- Late last year, ORBX produced a big run of new products. Following their policy at the time, these products were offered at a 15 percent discount to those who pre-ordered. The pre-order was time-limited and was promoted as such: pre-order now and claim the discount.

 

-- 48 hours after the last product went off pre-sale, ORBX staged their usual end-of-year sale with all products, including the recent ones, available at a 33 percent discount.

 

-- Some people were upset by this and felt they'd been pushed to spend more in the pre-order than they would have if they'd waited for the end-of-year sale. They were vocal about expressing this, both on the ORBX forums, here and elsewhere.

 

-- ORBX was upset by this. I can't speak for ORBX officially and have no inside knowledge but my guess is that they felt, look, it's our privilege to set prices where we want, we always have a holiday sale so people should have seen it coming, and we don't want to be flayed in our own forum.

 

-- Most of the critical threads over at ORBX were deleted and many of the vocal critics were banned.

 

-- ORBX tightened enforcement of their forum rules and a number of other people were banned for posts that ORBX felt were against policy or were unwarranted.

 

-- ORBX also reacted quite negatively to those who posted criticism in other forums. My understanding is that some of the people who posted elsewhere were banned from ORBX, but others would have to confirm this. I was critical of ORBX here and wasn't banned - I was simply told that I was "walking a fine line."

 

-- One of the complicating factors is that the ORBX forum really existed to provide product support. Those who were banned lost access to support for a time. That's primarily why AVSIM created this forum - so that banned members could provide tech support for each other. At a later point ORBX created a secondary forum providing tech support for those who weren't allowed to post on the main forums. I'm not sure whether this still exists since I'm not a participant.

 

-- The other reason that people have gathered here is that before the bans, there was a community of people on the ORBX forums who interacted in a variety of ways, the way people typically do on flightsim forums. They gather here in order to re-create that sense of community and continue their interactions.

 

-- Many of those people are angry about how they feel they were treated by ORBX and about ORBX' policies toward those who dissent.

 

-- However, I think it's safe to say that everyone agrees about the quality of ORBX products and supports the many talented developers who work for and with ORBX.

 

-- Some of us, myself included, would like to see the dispute resolved in some way and to see the original ORBX community restored. The reason for my post was to suggest, by example, a possible way of doing this. However, as others have noted, the post also seeemd to re-open old wounds and give still-angry people a reason to feel angry again. In that regard, my decision to post it might not have been good judgement. I'll leave it to others to decide that.

 

-- The better use of this forum would be for product support, and to recreate the old ORBX community for those who are either unable or unwilling to participate in the official forums.

 

 

I hope this gives you and TechGuyMaxC and others who come here a quick sense of what's gone on. It all seems like a big deal in the context of flightsim but really isn't in the overall scheme of things.

 

 

Peace!

 

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-- Some of us, myself included, would like to see the dispute resolved in some way and to see the original ORBX community restored.

 

 

Peace!

 

I have to agree with a lot of what you posted Alan but the ban on peoples started way before the sale you mentionned, why not copy/paste your post on Orbx's forums to see if they are welling to resolved the dispute, after all they are the one who banned some of us, am I right?

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-Company sets up store and customers arrive

Company welcomes everyone with open arms and installs table and chairs so everyone has a place to chat and feels weclome.

-After a few year there is a sale that makes some people unhappy

-People complaining about it for a week and start becoming hostile towards the company

Company is starting to do very well and offer there (in there words)most loyal customers a 15% discount if they pay for the next product upfront (up to 30 days before)before it comes out, there are many coming out within one month (around 8), so alot take up this offer only to see after all the products come out that the company have a 33% on them all.

-Company uninvites some customers from the store. It is probably not many based on how many people are here

The loyal customers that paid up front voices there displease at the 33% sale are told to go away and do not come back because the company can do what they like.

-Customers decided instead of finding a new store they go across the street and begin protesting every day. There protests are very direct and name specific people. The store does not respond, they do not insult the people across the street, they continue there business like before

I think you would find they have gone to new stores and spend there money else where. If you look at the opening topics there is very few that are started and targeted at the company but if people ask or pock a stick they get an answer.

-The protest continue even months after the people were uninvited. They want an apology. But the store obviously does not want them back inside. The store is now quiet and peaceful. The only problems are in the place across the street where the protest have run out of things to protest about, so they pick on every issue possible.

The Company is all quiet because no one is aloud to open there mouths unless it a "we love you" and god help them if they even what to tell there pals e.g A2A have the new P-51D. The tables and chairs now have a man standing over them with a stick.

-A store worker who was laid off joins in out of spite toward his former employer

How dare he

-This is how I see it

Good for you.

It is also interesting. Many of you say you do not have a care in the world for what happen at ORBX but you hang around here all day long. If you do not care why are you not going to other vendor like Aerosoft and Fltampa instead of hanging around here all the time

 

Once a day I come here, just like I goto 10-12 other forums a day, "all day" I think not. Unless someone pocks a stick.

 

Have a good weekend commodor peace to you.

 

 

 

 

I live by this:

Do right to me and I will make sure to always do right to you, if you want to tread on my toes I will break your legs first.

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I see, you will break their legs. That is the anger that Alan seems to have mention.

 

And you want an apology?

 

If not agreeing with you is poking a stick i may end up poking a lot of sticks. But i will refrain from using angry red text and threatening to break legs. That seems very extreme.

 

This also show that you may have become what you dislike most. If people do not agree you are angry with them and throw accusations. I do not see anybody there insult you. Nobody threaten to break legs in red text. It is funny. The moderator here has to delete many posts because they are too offensive and you claim you do nothing at all wrong when you were banned.

 

Treads on toes, break legs. Ha. That is a dangerous way to live

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No sorry that was not the point at all commodor

 

the point of the saying is

I will alway do right by people but don't think for one second I am going to let anyone walk all over me and to be clear that has nothing to do with your company or you or anyone on any forum.

 

Why did you not pick up on the point I will always do right by someone if there right with me? negative thinking commodor...negative thinking

 

The red text was simple to split up the wall of text so it read easy it could have been any colour. I had no idea anyone would think red text =angry I thought caps = shouting/angry I will opologize to anyone who thinks my red text = angry.

I will use a new cool shade of blue from now on commodor.

 

Please do not twist my words and I see you have nothing to say about all the replies apart from one saying that has nothing to do with your company or any company.

 

I will give you another saying I live buy.

 

"Do to others as you would have done to yourself". in a nice carm blue.

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@ Commodor, so you like Orbx product like we all do, you buy them and some of us don't, you don't agree with some of us......ok fair enough so what's your point...

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No one likes Orbx products more than I do, there the very best. I just don't buy them anymore.

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Sounds like an unfortunate situation we see all too often as humans. I won't cast any blame here as it's not my place to do so. I will say this though: seems like the only way to resolve this is with an apology and since both parties feel wronged perhaps they can each apologize for their respective part. Just my two cents. Sorry for those that were banned, I've been banned under similar circumstances though not with any money involved.

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Where I work if a customer is upset with the product, pricing etc we try and resolve the problem whether it be our fault or the customers because we want them to come back and spend their money at our store.

Now if we let 100 angry customers go some where else, it would not affect my wage but ORBX isn't exactly Australia's largest retail company. So although there are the familiar faces I see and know they do not buy ORBX products anymore (including myself) there is no doubt there are a whole lot more that do not aswell whether it be uptight Mods, the need to buy a $2000 computer or the product or pricing. I don't know about others but I'm happy to have an apology both ways, if not I won't buy another ORBX product and I'm happy to join a 'sledge' when I see one.

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It's pretty simple for me.. before I was a regular visitor to their forum almost every day, so almost every day I saw their logo, read posts how great their products are, sometimes for hours (so I was an active customer) and, as a result, I was buying almost everything they released. Since they changed their forum policy (and all that happened) I go to their forum maybe once per month and I'm there for about 2 minutes. The result is that I bought 1 product in the last few months. I still think their products are great but I'm just not that interested in buying almost everything anymore. So, some of my money went to other developers instead.

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I appreciate where you're coming from Alan and your summary of the events is faultless. Those who don't understand the issues need to realise that until this forum was created NO such discussion could be posted.

I'm not naming any posters here.

Sufficient to say that many years ago a guy called Ralph Nader started to champion consumer rights. His efforts have been copied across the World and because of that the world's most successful manufacturers now listen to AND seek customer feedback on their products. Successful brands are the ones with the best customer care and who recall faulty products or issue updates.

The sale debacle was slightly different. A blunder of monumental stupidity? We've all done those? Yes you have! ...and we've all coped with the fall out in different ways.

FTX have called their tune. IMHO the path they've chosen is blinkered and they will lose sales ...however their accountant is the only one likely to influence current policy so that leaves you with the simple choice of BUY or DON'T BUY?

All other FS add-on producers have offers ...just like the rest of the real commercial world. It's a proven sales tool. If FTX choose to respond to previous mistakes by ignoring that we at least know where we stand.

My Golden rule was NEVER pre-pay for anything. The only two times I ever did ....it turned round and bit me .

Unless you were affected by the pre-pay/sale debacle your opinion is frankly irrelevant. Everyone on this section of the forums IS an FTX customer. None dispute the quality of the developers work. What is different is that here you can voice an opinion, post screenshots without restrictions and still get help from a decent bunch of guys, most of whom used to be on the official forum.

I'd just point out that Loyalty is hard to gain .....easily lost ........and once lost hard to regain.

Geoff

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