Going down like a lead balloon?

[Chock 17,769]

What was the insignia when it crashed at Lakehurst?

 

Apart from its early flights when it had not been named, and when it briefly also wore the Olympic Rings, for its Transatlantic crossings in 1936 and 1937 when it crashed, i.e. for most of the two years it existed, it wore swastikas on both sides of the two vertical fins, with the name Hindenburg in gothic germanic type painted in red dope on the forward section on both sides, plus the serial number D-LZ129, with the rest of the exterior covered with aluminium doped canvas. The inside of the covering was doped with red oxide on the upper half to block UV rays to prevent the hydrogen gas bags from overheating and venting gas, and the alloy framework was mostly painted blue on the interior, which you will see on my model since I am fully modeling the interior too with a VC, passenger areas and the access gantries which run the length of the ship (804 feet) through which you will be able to explore what it looked like inside.

 

Although most people know it as The Hindenburg, in fact in Germany it was almost exclusively referred to officially as LZ129 and not The Hindenburg, following Goebbels' spat with Eckener over his naming it the Hindenburg instead of naming it after the Fuhrer as Goebbels had advocated.

[SpiritFlyer 987]

My personal opinion is that history is history. Leave it alone and don't twist it into a lie. Whatever was, was!

 

To deny ###### symbols is to deny the tyrannical reality behind them. An inconvenient past can be repudiated and renounced, but not removed from living memory.

 

However, since possessing images of the swastica is illegal in certain jurisdictions, perhaps make 2 versions available, one with, and one without.

 

Kind regards,

[Ron Attwood 3,466]

The over riding question is: What is it like on frames?

[vololiberista 205]

I concur with one of the above posts. Whatever you do, "Do Not" paint the Robinson's Golliwog !!!! ;-) You will get into far more trouble than if you painted the Swastika!!!

[samtx 1]

Two versions is best. The purists can have the real thing, but others can still have access without stirring up other issues. I'm guessing most people arguing for historical accuracy don't reside in a country where it would be illegal.

[Chock 17,769]

Just to clarify the position on legality of displaying the swastika, particularly in Germany. Displaying the swastika is indeed illegal in some countries, but people often erroneously claim that displaying the swastika in Germany is totally illegal, and that is in fact a myth. But it gets repeated so often that people believe it to be the case. The actual ruling on this (Section 86 of the German Criminal Statute Book relating to 'means of propaganda of unconstitutional organisations') states that it is a criminal act only if: 'the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization' and it further clarifies that by also stating that this law 'shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes.'

 

The key points here of course, are the bits about furthering civil enlightenment, promoting art and science, and in relation to historical events. Germany does in fact practice what it preaches in regards to this matter too; for example, if you visit the Luftwaffe Museum in Berlin, you can see several aircraft on display there, which are painted up in authentic WW2 camouflage schemes which include the swastika on the tailplanes of aircraft. Nevertheless, some museums do swap the swastika for a basic cross on occasion, for example at the Zeppelin Museum in Friedrichshafen, there are several models of the Hindenburg on display which omit the swastika in favour of a plain black cross. In 2007, an attempt to make the display of the swastika illegal throughout Europe was dropped after numerous protests from historians, religious organisations and such.

 

One can sort of understand the desire for Germany to show willing on the matter from a perhaps misplaced sense of guilt, but that is something which modern day German citizens have no need to feel guilty about any more than I should feel guilty about French and Spanish sailors killed by British cannon balls at the battle of Trafalgar. Sensibly, opposition to the EU proposal put forward by Germany was quite firm from the UK. Considering that we (in England) as a country were on the receiving end of quite a lot of bombs dropped from aeroplanes with that symbol on the tailplane, I guess that shows that there can be a common sense difference between remembering stuff and blanket-banning it for fear of promoting it, or even grudgingly holding people who were nothing to do with the matter responsible for it for some bizarre reason.

 

The over riding question is: What is it like on frames?

 

Won't know that for sure until it is finished, but at the moment, here's what it gets over Aerosoft's Chicago with all the traffic on:

 

 

Al

[CryogenicPilot 1]

Won't know that for sure until it is finished, but at the moment, here's what it gets over Aerosoft's Chicago with all the traffic on:

 

 

Al

 

Oh, the humanity!

 

The frames, I mean :P

[Chock 17,769]

Oh, the humanity!

 

The frames, I mean :P

 

Well, like the real disaster, around 30 frames were used up, but happily, over 60 frames survived.

 

Here's an interesting bit of trivia about the Hindenburg by the way, and I only found this out the other day. When the British airship R-101 crashed in Beauvais in 1930, that too (at the time of its crash) was the biggest aircraft ever flown, at 777 feet long. The wreckage of it was purchased by the Zeppelin company, because of the large quantity of duralumin; they recycled it and built the Hindenburg with some of that recycled alloy, so ironically, bits of the Hindenburg had actually crashed already, when they were in another airship.

 

Al

[IFR7700 228]

I would like to point out, as a matter of historical accuracy and thoroughness, Jesse Owens was from Alabama.

[Chock 17,769]

Yes he was, but he was named James Cleveland Owens after his father, Henry Cleveland Owens. His nickname of Jesse, came from his initials, J.C.

 

Al

[Ben Johnson 3]

make two versions so our German and French friends can enjoy the fruits of your labor.

 

Bob L

[Alan_A 1,650]

I'd vote for alternate versions, one with and one without. I'm all for choice. But speaking as a Jewish-born American whose family had losses in the Holocaust, I'd opt for the swastika version myself. I remember vividly my father's description of seeing the Hindenburg fly south over Manhattan toward Lakehurst the afternoon of the day she crashed. More than anything else, he talked about the huge swastikas on the tail. It wasn't a happy thing, obviously, but it was part of the historical experience. It left a vivid impression on him and to me that should be part of the story.

 

Interestingly, there's a description of that flight over Manhattan in E.L Doctorow's novel World's Fair. Doctorow saw her over the Bronx. The novel is autobiographical and Doctorow was just a bit older than my father, so there's another element of the story right there. If I recall correctly, the Hindenburg arrived farther north than usual that day and then took a non-standard route south over New York City. I think it was for weather avoidance but I could be wrong about that. In any case, it was the closest look that most New Yorkers ever got to the Hindenburg and of course a lot of them went home and listened to Morrison's broadcast, so that just cemented the impression.

 

So yes to the swastikas, for me at least.

[Chock 17,769]

You are correct about the weather avoidance, or at least partially so. The Hindenburg actually diverted to New York because the weather was too wet and windy for her in NJ to land upon her arrival in the USA on the day she was destroyed, so the Captain decided to cruise around for a while until the weather improved before attempting a landing. But instead of just orbiting the landing field, they decided to give the passengers a scenic tour of New York City, which is why she was over New York on that day, before leaving after around three hours for the airfield to attempt a landing as night fell.

 

The Hindenburg, like all passenger airships of her kind, always tried to avoid storms because of the stresses such turbulence and vertical drafts might put on the structure, and because the crews feared that a lightning strike might ignite venting hydrogen. Strong winds would make airships almost impossible to land safely, even when flying directly into the wind as they generally tried to do when landing. But like sailing ships, airships did actually deliberately skirt the edge of storms over the Atlantic, in order to use tailwinds to boost their groundspeed, since at the typical cruise altitude of 3,000 feet or so, airships such as the Hindenburg could only cruise at about 75 knots.

 

Although it has never been conclusively proved what caused the destruction of the ship, the official investigation at the time concluded that static ignited venting hydrogen at the top of the craft near the tailfin, since there were electrical storms in the area earlier that day. However, I think a more plausible theory, is that she was overstressed when turning to try and align with the landing gantry in the strong winds, and that an internal bracing wire broke free from the rear structure under the torque which the turn induced on the structure, and the whiplash from the cable then tore open a rear gasbag. Losing lift from the torn gasbag and forced to dump ballast, I think she was then turned more tightly because of the equilibrium being out of trim, necessitating a bit of a rushed landing, which may have caused another bracing wire to give way, and that one probably caused a spark when it struck the internal metal structure, which ignited either vapour from a diesel engine fuel tank, or one of the leaking hydrogen gas cells.

 

That's just my theory, and it is impossible to prove too of course, since the elevator man, the rudder man and the engine controllers on board the Hindenburg were only overseen by the Captain rather than being issued a constant stream of orders as one might suppose, the experienced crewmen being instead expected to use their judgement, this only ever being overridden by the Captain if he felt they were doing something wrong. And since not everyone in the control and engine gondolas survived the crash, some of the crew took the knowledge of what they were doing - independently of one another during the landing - to their graves. But, I guess we'll never know for sure.

 

Thanks for all the replies so far everyone. It seems to me that most people favour the real deal, but since it is not difficult to do a sanitised version, I guess the sensible option is to offer both choices.

 

Al

[EngineRoom 205]

Other than flight simulations my other main hobby is making 1/48 scale model aircraft, and WW2 Luftwaffe types are one of my favourite subjects. The Swastika/Hakenkreuz is sometimes a hot topic there too. Some people refuse to build a model with a Hakenkreuz. Some people build models with the Hakenkreuz and visitors to their house are offended by it. The Hakenkreuz is banned in many European countries so model kits of WW2 Luftwaffe aircraft don't come with decals for the tail markings. Some of them have the Hakenkreuz decal on the edge of the sheet so it can be snipped off for sale in countries where ###### symbology is banned. The box art and painting instructions never show the Hakenkreuz, even in kits which have the decals.

 

The bottom line is it's a personal thing. I'm one for historical accuracy and if people are offended by the Hakenkreuz then they shouldn't download it. Simple as that. Perhaps the best solution is to upload two versions of the model - one with and one without the Hakenkreuz and let people make their own choice.

 

It's something of a product of popular history which absolutely demonises the ##### whilst pretty much ignores the Stalin-era Soviet Union. Put on most satellite or cable TV "documentary" channels and they are awash with "######" this and "H****r" that, but nobody seems to care about the 20 million or so that died under Stalin's rule (or the often quoted 45 million who died during Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward). Likewise we often forget that WW2 began when both Germany AND the Soviet Union invaded Poland.

[Chock 17,769]

Yup, I've come across model kits where the decals of swastikas are in two halves on the backing paper, so you can join them up on the model. Which is frankly a preposterous state of affairs when one can actually buy decal paper anyway and make any decal you like if you have a printer and some photo software; all it does is make things a pain in the &@($* for modelers rather than to prevent people putting swastikas on their 1/72nd scale bf109s and Ju87s.

 

Last time I checked (and that was fairly recently, since I do still make models every once in a while), modelers were either young kids or dedicated hobbyists into the history, research and just the skill and enjoyment of model making, and not given to goose-stepping about in their lounges whilst watching The Triumph of the Will. I and most of my friends probably made more WW2 fighter and bomber scale models throughout our childhoods than actually took part in the real war LOL, and thus far, none of us appear to have grown up into neo #####. Thus I can only surmise that all those little swastika transfers, and Revell and Airix's evil plan apparently failed to indoctrinate us into joining the SS. One might just as well claim that driving a Mercedes, Volkswagen, BMW, Porsche or Opel, having a Krupps coffee grinder, or wearing a Hugo Boss suit, will turn you into a fervent National Socialist LOL

 

Here's a work in progress screenie of one of the DB-602 diesel engines being constructed in case anyone is interested. The Hindenburg had four of these engines, each one had 16 cylinders arranged in two rows of eight in a vee, with a total displacement of 88.5 litres, they each weighed about 4,400lbs and put out 1,320hp to a 19 foot four-bladed wooden propeller. The black pipes coming off the top of the rocker cover are the water coolant pipes leading to the radiator at the front of the gondala, which had clamshell doors that could be opened to assist in cooling, the big pipes going through the floor are the exhausts:

 

 

Al