A little more on STARS.... I agree that in real world most stars dont take you to touchdown in fact ive never seen one. The closest thing to this would be a closed STAR; closed STARS terminate at the FACF(final approach course fix). This is normally used when the inbound track is within +/- 90 degrees of the final approach course to the runway. Then there is the open STAR which takes you to the DTW aka downwind termination waypoint. These are designed so the a/c flies parallel to the rwy/s in use and the DTW is downwind from where the pilot will receive vectors to the final approach(ie ILS). Up here in Canada theyre mostly open STARs afaik, in fact CYYZ has all open STARS.

 

Cheers.

 

Alejandro.

 

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but on the KORRY3 arrival into LGA, there's no 'lost communications' vectoring info. The last waypoint on this STAR is 'PROUD', which is a few miles south of runway 22 and east of Manhattan. What would I do in this situation?

Not to beat a dead horse, but on the KORRY3 arrival into LGA, there's no 'lost communications' vectoring info. The last waypoint on this STAR is 'PROUD', which is a few miles south of runway 22 and east of Manhattan. What would I do in this situation?

 

There is no ATC, do whatever you like.

 

You can select a runway and approach procedure, turn the aircraft onto a "downwind" for the active runway and vector yourself so you intercept the initial approach fix at a nice angle.

Gotta be careful with the arrivals into NY. As I mentioned earlier, they use vectoring extensively, so the automation (the FMS) will often tell you that you're too high, or out of sorts in some other way.

 

While the KORRY3 doesn't have a section that specifically says "LOST COMMUNICATIONS," it does have implicit lost comms in that the narrative page says "expect vectors to the final approach course." If you were to lose comms, you would revert to AVEF: as Assigned, as Vectored, as Expected, as Filed. If you were to lose comms somewhere during the KORRY3, you'd follow the KORRY3, descending via the arrival, all the way to the end where it says "expect vectors to the final approach course." Because of that instruction at the end, the pilot can use that as a valid ATC instruction to continue the flight, as it is an "expected" assignment. The pilot would then "self vector" onto the final approach course, and controllers would keep the path clear.

 

However, none of that really helps you because you would then have to vector yourself. For what it's worth, this tool (actually developed by the FAA, though it's shown here on a VATSIM-related site) shows you the general vectoring that occurs at the end of each arrival stream:

http://www.nyartcc.org/N90Flows/

 

Might help some...

Gotta be careful with the arrivals into NY. As I mentioned earlier, they use vectoring extensively, so the automation (the FMS) will often tell you that you're too high, or out of sorts in some other way.

 

While the KORRY3 doesn't have a section that specifically says "LOST COMMUNICATIONS," it does have implicit lost comms in that the narrative page says "expect vectors to the final approach course." If you were to lose comms, you would revert to AVEF: as Assigned, as Vectored, as Expected, as Filed. If you were to lose comms somewhere during the KORRY3, you'd follow the KORRY3, descending via the arrival, all the way to the end where it says "expect vectors to the final approach course." Because of that instruction at the end, the pilot can use that as a valid ATC instruction to continue the flight, as it is an "expected" assignment. The pilot would then "self vector" onto the final approach course, and controllers would keep the path clear.

 

However, none of that really helps you because you would then have to vector yourself. For what it's worth, this tool (actually developed by the FAA, though it's shown here on a VATSIM-related site) shows you the general vectoring that occurs at the end of each arrival stream:

http://www.nyartcc.org/N90Flows/

 

Might help some...

 

Your answers have been killer, Kyle. On that link, for example the ILS 13 arrival shows a pattern that shoots up the Hudson, and makes a 'box' back around over Central Park to 13. The 'box' would obviously be all vectored...so is it really possible to (makeshift) vector myself around that pattern? Or are there fixes of any sort...Maybe I should stay away from NY LOL! :unsure:

Gotta be careful with the arrivals into NY. As I mentioned earlier, they use vectoring extensively, so the automation (the FMS) will often tell you that you're too high, or out of sorts in some other way.

 

While the KORRY3 doesn't have a section that specifically says "LOST COMMUNICATIONS," it does have implicit lost comms in that the narrative page says "expect vectors to the final approach course." If you were to lose comms, you would revert to AVEF: as Assigned, as Vectored, as Expected, as Filed. If you were to lose comms somewhere during the KORRY3, you'd follow the KORRY3, descending via the arrival, all the way to the end where it says "expect vectors to the final approach course." Because of that instruction at the end, the pilot can use that as a valid ATC instruction to continue the flight, as it is an "expected" assignment. The pilot would then "self vector" onto the final approach course, and controllers would keep the path clear.

 

However, none of that really helps you because you would then have to vector yourself. For what it's worth, this tool (actually developed by the FAA, though it's shown here on a VATSIM-related site) shows you the general vectoring that occurs at the end of each arrival stream:

http://www.nyartcc.org/N90Flows/

 

Might help some...

 

WOW.....I knew that NYC airspace was complicated, but that's insane. Many thanks for posting that link. What exactly are those colored boxes in certain scenarios? Are they conflict/coordination areas with the other airports?

I think you'll find more info on that in the details box, I just picked one that turned out a box and it said that box was an area which JFK area had to get releases from LGA from when operating in (or something similar, I just skimmed it quickly).

 

And things do often look a lot different from the other side of the radar don't they

Your answers have been killer, Kyle. On that link, for example the ILS 13 arrival shows a pattern that shoots up the Hudson, and makes a 'box' back around over Central Park to 13. The 'box' would obviously be all vectored...so is it really possible to (makeshift) vector myself around that pattern? Or are there fixes of any sort...Maybe I should stay away from NY LOL! :unsure:

 

Thanks. Given my work history, it's nice to be able to demystify things some for people.

As for the boxes, they're mostly coordination boxes. In some cases, the airspace is so packed that aircraft paths end up getting too close for minimums, so they actually have to coordinate the airspace for the two airports. Johan's answer captured this well.

 

Basically, the boxes are parts of the airspace that either change hands between the different areas, or is cautionary airspace. I'm not sure exactly how N90 works with their airports, but Potomac serves each airport with its own area: IAD is Shenandoah, DCA is Mount Vernon, BWI is Chesapeake, and CHO/RIC is James River. If I remember correctly, they do similar and call one of theirs Liberty (which you'll see on that site abbreviated as "LIB"), while the others I'm drawing a complete blank on.

 

As an example, if you click on JFK's ARR VOR 4R, DEP 4L/31L, you'll see a magenta box pop up. It may not be obvious why, but if JFK is landing 4, you can assume LGA is landing 4 - click on LGA's ARR ILS 4, DEP 4. Boom. Now you know why. If you departed 31L and continued straight, you'd cross straight through LGA's finals. For this reason, the airspace here is released to JFK's area for departures off of 31L (the way it's written indicates that LGA normally keeps it, and releases it upon coordination with JFK) so that aircraft can make a turn away from LGA's finals.

 

If anyone's flown out of JFK and has actually read through the Kennedy One departure, this scenario shows you exactly why the departure is written the way it is.

 

Similarly, if you look at the Newark One departure (departing on the 4s), you'll see that you have to turn right immediately after departure before turning back left. Why? Go back to the animation and click on EWR's ARR ILS 4, DEP 4, and then click on TEB's ARR 6, DEP 1. It all starts to fall together.

 

Remember what I said earlier about "technical" airspace? Yeah...

 

WOW.....I knew that NYC airspace was complicated, but that's insane. Many thanks for posting that link. What exactly are those colored boxes in certain scenarios? Are they conflict/coordination areas with the other airports?

 

You're welcome.

Correct. As mentioned above, they're coordinated airspace between the different areas. Depending on the runways in use at each airport, the airspace may change hands for a more efficient operation. I'm not too incredibly familiar with N90, though, so my terms may be slightly off. That's the gist of it, though.

Thanks. Given my work history, it's nice to be able to demystify things some for people.

 

That you are doing! Every answer gets better. You're the epitome of a mogul/guru.

 

As an example, if you click on JFK's ARR VOR 4R, DEP 4L/31L, you'll see a magenta box pop up. It may not be obvious why, but if JFK is landing 4, you can assume LGA is landing 4 - click on LGA's ARR ILS 4, DEP 4. Boom. Now you know why. If you departed 31L and continued straight, you'd cross straight through LGA's finals. For this reason, the airspace here is released to JFK's area for departures off of 31L (the way it's written indicates that LGA normally keeps it, and releases it upon coordination with JFK) so that aircraft can make a turn away from LGA's finals.

 

Again, very interesting. I have a cousin that flies in and out of LGA for Chautauqua--so I'm sure if I can somehow reiterate this he'd be surprised...

:t0152:

I have a cousin that flies in and out of LGA for Chautauqua

 

If he flew into IAD, I probably put bags on his plane in a past life.

Thanks!

Hi there,

 

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EFB by Aivlasoft

 

www.aivlasoft.com

 

Wycliffe

 

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You say this:

I have the FMC 90% mastered

 

Then you say this:

Do I select the SID? Then the DBN (or CTY) trans-then the STAR? And fill in-between? I'm dumbfounded and clueless here. If I try to insert those 5 points manually, it doesn't 'take', and what goes in To & Via? Is there just some foolproof way to set up a route? Where it leads right into the ILS feather? Or how to decide which runway coincides with each STAR? I have too many questions and probably sound like a babbling idiot. Please, how on earth do I set up a route???

You only understand about 10% of it.

 

First of all, plot the routes you want to fly. There are a few websites that will show your route on a map. You need to understand the basics of the airway system - intersections and airways primarily, but also VORs and to a lesser extent, airway beacons and NDBs.

 

Once you understand that an airway consists of multiple intersections, and you define the start and end of the airway in the FMS so it knows things like which direction you're taking and the intersections to join in the middle, then life will be much easier.

 

In the real-world, there will usually be a dispatcher that generates the routing for you. In FS we don't have that luxury, so we either make it up or look for a real-world route to use instead.

 

The basic idea is that you pick a SID that goes roughly in the direction you want to go, joins roughly with the route you want to use, then joins roughly at the other end to lead you into the airport TMA (Terminal Maneuvering Area).

 

(VECTORS) is sometimes useful to be able to add, but where one doesn't exist you have HEADING SELECT.

 

Not all arrivals go to runways nicely in Europe, either. A lot in the UK terminate at a hold point for example, where ATC will pick you up and vector you to final, if not before then.

 

Vectors are more common than people realize, and another not very well understood point is that in the real-world you rarely fly the full procedures.

 

Best regards,

Robin.