What is IFR? (read to know what I mean)

[ltnicolas 5]

Hi people! I recently made a flight in Alaska Anchorage (AK24 to PAZK). I followed ANC (Anchorage) VOR/DME to get the location of PAZK.

Is this IFR? Is this VFR? I (think I ) know what are both, and their differences, but this just seemed to be a hybrid of them both (does it exists?)

 

Weather was 20NM visibility, few clouds at, say, 5000ft. strong crosswinds (~20nm)... so no visibility or icing problems.

Any input from a RW pilot or somebody knowledgeable is appreciated.

 

Cheers and happy flying!

Nicolás

[Brett_Henderson 5]

What you did, was a VFR flight, navigating by instrument.. as in.. you were operating under, Visual Flight Rules.

 

An IFR flight is conducted under, Instrument Flight Rules.... "Rules", being the key for either flight.

 

You can file and fly an IFR flight-plan on a perfectly clear day, but you'd be under ATC control, whether or not you actually used (or needed) instruments for navigation. Virtually all commercial, passenger flights are required to be under IFR, regardless the weather.

 

VFR flying MUST be done under VFR meteorological conditions (visibility, ceilings, etc..)

[ltnicolas 5]

Thanks for your input, Brett;

Actually weather was fine. I should had said CAVOK instead. no IMC

I used VOR/DME to navigate, as I was not familiar with the zone.

 

This was my exact trip: I took off and gained altitude until I got the ANC VOR/DME, I flew the radial that would get me to PAZK until the appropiate distance, AND THEN when I spotted the airstrip I proceeded VISSUALY

 

So you see, IFR at the beginning and then proceeded VFR? what's your opinion, Brett?

 

Thanks and as my custom: "Cheers and happy Flying!"

Nicolás

[scottb613 1,188]

Hi Nicolas,

 

Unless you file and open an IFR Flight Plan - you a operating VFR... You can use whatever navigation equipment you want under VFR it's still VFR flight... You can fly IFR under Visual Meteorological Conditions - but you can't legally operate VFR into Instrument Meteorological Conditions... Sounds a little confusing but do you understand ? Good job on the flight...

 

Regards,

Scott

[Brett_Henderson 5]

So you see, IFR at the beginning and then proceeded VFR? what's your opinion, Brett?

 

You forgot the 'R' in 'IFR' (rules).. :smile:

 

As scott stated, it's VFR unless filed IFR, where ATC monitors/advises you, throughout the flight..

 

You flew VFR the whole way, but navigated at first, by instrument.. then by visual reference.

 

EDIT: Allow me to elaborate.. the difference between navigating by instrument, and flying by Instrument Flight Rules, is that there really is no IFR "navigation"..

 

A filed IFR plan is pre-navigated... as in, you know exactly where you're going, and how you will get there, leg-by-leg, every step of the way... before even rolling down the runway.. ATC needs to know where you'll be, and when ....

[Cessnaflyer 56]

You can fly a whole IFR flight in IMC and never talk to ATC without a flightplan. I've done it a few times, you just have to be in uncontrolled airspace.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

You can fly a whole IFR flight in IMC and never talk to ATC without a flightplan. I've done it a few times, you just have to be in uncontrolled airspace.

 

We used to do the same. And you can request from the tower at some airports an ILS approach in VFR for training purposes. That was the highlight of my flight training with my instructor making me wear the hood so I couldn't see outside (only instruments) until 1/2 mile out when you can take the hood off.

 

I miss flying but FSX is still really good.

 

Cheers

[Capt Richardo 12]

Not had time to read all the previous posts so this may have been said, just because the weather is VMC you can still fly IFR and depending on the type of flight your doing, you can be IFR in VMC, you might have problems flying leagally VFR in IMC though! Remember in real life to fly IFR your aircraft must be correctly equipped and you must hold the necessary valid ratings.

 

I think many simmers put to much on VFR & IFR and dont understand the requirements that in the real world have to be met as far as the conditions (IMC & VMC).

 

On the sim what ever your conditions or flight rules the most importaint thing is to learn and enjoy it :rolleyes:

 

Rich

[mgh 89]

The Instrument Flight Rules themselves are relatively simple. In the UK they consist of:

 

Rule 33 - Minimum Height

Rule 34 - Quadrantral rule and semicircular rule

Rule 35 - Flight plan and air traffic control clearance

Rule 36 - Compliance with air traffic control clearance and notified procedures

Rule 37 Position reports

 

All the Rules apply in controlled airspace. Only Rules 33 & 34 apply in uncontrolled airspace.

 

The UK Rules can be found here. No doubt there are similar requirements elsewhere,.

[Brett_Henderson 5]

You can fly a whole IFR flight in IMC and never talk to ATC without a flightplan. I've done it a few times, you just have to be in uncontrolled airspace.

 

I'm assuming, by 'un-controlled', you mean class 'G' ? In most of the eastern U.S., that's barely above TPA (pattern altitude).

 

Regardless.. that would be flying by instruments for sure (or scud-running.. I've done that too), but not flying by instrument Rules .. hence not IFR ...

 

And if I remember correctly, even 'G' airspace has legal limits, albeit much looser .. ie.. 1 mile vis as opposed to 3 mile vis.

 

 

EDIT:.. OK, I re-read and understand your point (good one).. in un-controlled airspace (G), the IFR "rules", do not require a filed flight-plan, or ATC involvement.. you're pretty much on your own, mostly because they don't have useful radar coverage (or responsibility) for 'G' airspace..

 

For most of the U.S... this is a non-issue. There are nearly no A-to-B courses that could possibly entail only 'G' airspace. Even out west (where 'G' extends to useful altitudes), you're gonna need an IFR clearance to get in/out of many airports, in IMC.

 

Back to the OP's question.. navigating by instrument, and flying by instrument rules, are two different things.

[KevinAu 441]

I'm assuming, by 'un-controlled', you mean class 'G' ? In most of the eastern U.S., that's barely above TPA (pattern altitude).

 

Regardless.. that would be flying by instruments for sure (or scud-running.. I've done that too), but not flying by instrument Rules .. hence not IFR ...

 

And if I remember correctly, even 'G' airspace has legal limits, albeit much looser .. ie.. 1 mile vis as opposed to 3 mile vis.

 

No, you can still fly IFR, yes R, in G airspace. It's just that you're not doing it under the control of ATC. That's why there are still VFR requirements in G airspace as you've noted, to provide a small modicum of distinction betweent the VFR and IFR people. Enroutewise, not very practicable in the contiguous US since controlled airspace pretty much exists from pattern altitude upwards, but there are other parts of the world where there is more voluminous G airspace. In fact, you've probably done IFR in G airspace yourself. If you've ever departed a Class G airport in IMC conditions with a clearance from ATC to enter controlled airspace, you're flying IFR in G airspace until you enter controlled airspace.

[FS++ 709]

Hi Nicolas,

 

Unless you file and open an IFR Flight Plan - you a operating VFR... You can use whatever navigation equipment you want under VFR it's still VFR flight... You can fly IFR under Visual Meteorological Conditions - but you can't legally operate VFR into Instrument Meteorological Conditions... Sounds a little confusing but do you understand ? Good job on the flight...

 

Regards,

Scott

 

+1

[Great Ozzie 101]

In fact, you've probably done IFR in G airspace yourself. If you've ever departed a Class G airport in IMC conditions with a clearance from ATC to enter controlled airspace, you're flying IFR in G airspace until you enter controlled airspace.

 

Yep... when you call up for a clearance (phone... if not close enough for radio) you'll get a drop dead time for departure and a heading / altitude assignment to enter controlled airspace.

 

Chris lives "out west" and there are large sections of Class G that extend from the SFC to 14,500MSL.

 

As Kevin & Chris point out... as long as you are IFR rated and the plane equipped for instrument flight... you do not need an ATC clearance to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

 

For U.S. in terms of logging Instrument Time... Sec. 61.51(g) "Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

[Brett_Henderson 5]

@ Kevin & Ozzie ... Yes (see my edit).. I understand that point... and it's an excellent point.. why I like these discussions ..

 

As for departing an un-towered airport, where the first 700' are 'G', in IMC ? .. sure I've used timed, phone clearances.. and yes, technically that's IFR flight (albeit brief) through 'G' airspace, but it always involved a filed flight-plan. .. and would require ATC clearance (for the approach), for me to land there, in IMC.

[Great Ozzie 101]

but it always involved a filed flight-plan. .. and would require ATC clearance (for the approach), for me to land there, in IMC.

 

Right Brett... because you are (of course know) you are entering controlled airspace... or going to. But once VMC in the approach (or conceivably in Class G) you know you could cancel IFR... not saying it would be smart tho.

 

Or say (looking at a sectional on Skyvector) you could depart w/o a clearance / flight plan flying IMC from Dixon (DWX) to Walden (33V) via A-A (which is private) if you knew beforehand Walden was VMC and you could enter controlled airspace (V524) VMC. If it was IMC at Walden (or like it is now checking Walden Wx) I'd imagine it would be similar flying a composite (VFR - IFR) flight plan... having to call-up and getting clearance before entering controlled airspace.

 

I never liked the idea of composite flight plans... to me I was more than happy flying the entire route on a IFR flight plan if VMC thru-out or needing a clearance at some point. Just not worth the 'hassle' (albeit small)... clearances were always easy to obtain and I just preferred knowing I had immediate ability to contact someone in case of a problem. I've never flown those Class G areas and I don't think I ever gave it any thought if I would IMC as I would prefer to be under ATC control.

 

Certainly no argument with what you wrote... and I know we have gone a bit deeper here (than needed)... but I too find the discussion very interesting especially the nuances.

 

To the OP... w/o a GPS in a small plane for example... VOR to VOR might be the best bet for a VFR flight (as I think you found out). IFR Enroute charts make it very simple to flight plan this way and keep track of your position.

 

-Rob