Thank You Mr McDonald.

Very nicely worded.

 

The average flier doesn't have a clue about just how revolutionary this aircraft really is.

 

Composite, on this scale is a whole new realm to those guys having to maintain and repair these 787's. Sheet metal mentality won't work at all, not to mention the learning curve the production guys have to learn on the shop floor.

 

There isn't bleed air to start engines, or keep you cool/warm in the cabin with the ECS system pacs. All electronic now.

Engine driven hydraulics only power some systems, electronics do the rest. Electronic motors move parts of the flight controls. A motor is a generator in reverse, in a sense. And the hydraulic system is at 5000 psi, not your normal 3000 psi.

And then there is the massive amount of software to think about that drives all these systems and the FBW system.

 

Please read the article at Aviation Week about their test flight of the 787, it was very informative.

 

Raptor

Posting about these specific problems with this or any aircraft program leads me to think.....When does an aircraft not have problems??? I don't believe that is ever possible.

 

Exactly. If I put the snags I found every day into a media-release with some angry quotes I too could get racy forum topics started :lol: .

True, but you seem to over-criticize and exaggerate. Al Baker was not screaming, and has every right and valid reasons to be dissatisfied as a customer of such an expensive product! As a manufacturer, you should be prepared to take criticism when you do something incorrectly.

 

 

Small does not equate to insignificance. Airlines become quite influential when they are highly regarded by customers and the industry as Qatar Airways is.

 

Mr Baker is a businessman who runs an airline. He has a loud mouth and seems to like to throw his weight around to try and get his way.

I don't remember him acting this way when his A380's were being delayed and I think they still have to have the wing mods done on the Qatar birds. Remember the mods for the wing cracks that are being seen on the fleet in service... Now that would be a "defect", AKA, an unk-unk. Airbus has a fix and is fixing it.

Boeing will do the same for the 787.

My point is, just tone it down a bit. Screaming to the press about it, don't get you any closer to getting your plane fixed.

 

Quote from him:“They have to get their act together very fast because we at Qatar Airways will not accept any more defects.”

 

A generator failure isn't a "defect". It's a bad generator, that's all it was. Happens all the time, when you have a very large collection of aircraft parts flying in formation in the form of an aircraft. It is a mechanical machine, it breaks from time to time. That generator happens to be a 250 kva, instead of the more normal 120 Kva variety. Most likely, a brand new generator from Hamilton Sustrand since most everything on this plane is driven by electricity. send the field team, change the generator, and go on with life...

 

Qatar Airway may be very liked and highly regarded and an up and coming airline but, that doesn't excuse Mr Baker's behavior for mouthing off as he did here and at other times with other makers. This isn't his first tirad to the press.

It may be his way as someone here pointed out, but that doesn't excuse bad behavior either. He needs to gripe to Boeing, that might get him better results, though I doubt it.

 

Honey works better than vineger most of the time, in other words...

Qatar Airway may be very liked and highly regarded and an up and coming airline but, that doesn't excuse Mr Baker's behavior for mouthing off as he did here and at other times with other makers. This isn't his first tirad to the press.

Honey works better than vineger most of the time, in other words...

Sorry—I just do not see how his behavior is inappropriate, especially in comparison to that of Michael O'Leary. Unfortunately, in the business world, sometimes giving vinegar (though I wouldn't really describe Al Baker's words as such, at least in this case) is the only way to exert pressure effectively and satisfy cooperate and customer demand.

All the airlines are customers- Boeing and Airbus are "Ford" and "Chevrolet" (or "Honda" and "Toyota" if you prefer). I can tell you that a consumer who asks for help in a pleasant and rational way gets far faster service than the whiner who is screaming with outrage _before_ anyone has had an opportunity to address his or her concerns. It's just human nature.

 

Sure, airplanes are expensive. Mr. Al-Baker apparently got wound up because he bought a "luxury" airplane instead of a "compact", and then had problems with it. I feel for him, and can sympathize. That said, if Mr. Al-Baker's own QA team signed off on the planes before they left my plant, I'm a little less than thrilled when he tries to throw me under the bus in the worldwide press.

 

Sure, I understand he's not happy- that's clear. On the other hand, I certainly think my company deserves the opportunity to 'make it right' and THEN he can complain if we fail to do so. Another AVSIM member rightly suggested that given the myriad number of components and systems on a modern airplane, it's actually more of a wonder that MORE THINGS don't go wrong than the things that do.

 

I'm reminded of the Air France Airbus disaster where clogged pitot tubes resulted in complete failure of the onboard FMS fly-by-wire system. Once the computers gave up, the humans took over.

 

The pilots, being given wrong altitude information kept trying to lift the plane's nose until she stalled and crashed.

 

Everyone "gets" airplanes are mission-critical. It's never good if a plane has to divert. Money is lost, reputations are tarnished, lives are threatened, and those at the top of the executive food chain need to cover their respective butts. Al-Baker doesn't like looking foolish, no more than the folks whose Toyota Prius' accelerators locked in full-throttle mode and crashed into other vehicles.

 

I'd be amazed if Boeing didn't do the right thing for Mr. Al-Baker, but making unkind remarks about a manufacturer who is a legend in flight when no one was killed or hurt? That fails in so many ways, in my view.

 

If I'm the CEO of Boeing, I'm willing to take Mr. Al-Baker's phone calls and private tirades in stride. When the guy lambastes my product in the worldwide press, then things are a lot less cordial, all the way around. I'm less inclined to move mountains for a guy like that, I'm just sayin'.

 

Of course Al-Baker will threaten to take his business elsewhere, and make derisive remarks about not buying $200M USD airplanes to put in museums, but what are his real choices? AIRBUS or BOEING. If he thinks there's an aircraft made that is NEVER going to malfunction, he's in for sad days ahead, QA or NO QA.

 

Airbus has their share of issues and downed airplanes, so it's not as if Al-Baker has a choice between Ferrari or Yugo. Either way, problems can pop up - especially on next-generation aircraft.

 

When he elected to buy the 787, I'm sure the benefits of the plane far outweighed the possible pitfalls of "new car bugs" that have since shown up.

 

Take a tour of the Boeing plant. You can tell the smartest guys in the world work there. That said, you still have the $28 an hour apprentice guy on the line bolting her together. Assembly line issues are going to happen, regardless of what company built the plane. Period.

 

At the end of the day, Mr. Al-Baker's planes eventually will get fixed, and life will continue. Vinegar or no vinegar.

 

Take a tour of the Boeing plant. You can tell the smartest guys in the world work there. That said, you still have the $28 an hour apprentice guy on the line bolting her together.

 

 

 

Sorry, but that's a bit of an uncalled for statement. I once was an apprentice bolting stuff together, i was always checked and over stamped. And what just because they're a trainee they are not smart? We wouldn't be working in the industry if we were that dim.

Sorry, but that's a bit of an uncalled for statement. I once was an apprentice bolting stuff together, i was always checked and over stamped. And what just because they're a trainee they are not smart? We wouldn't be working in the industry if we were that dim.

 

Apologies! I meant no disrespect. I'm sure there's a logical explanation for how the fuel couplers didn't get installed on 280 aircraft. You probably have a better idea than I do of how it might have happened.

 

I have nothing but admiration and respect for Boeing and their employees. I'm sure the apprentices are smart - and capable. But assemblers follow plans/drawings... if the drawings were defective, then it wasn't an assembler's fault. If the drawings were correct, then a process must have broken down. I would presume fuel line couplers go on during final assembly, not at some pre-fab outsource location. If this is incorrect, then it may have been a VENDOR issue, not an ASSEMBLY issue.

I didn't think you did, i was just making sure Yea they've obviously got something wrong with the assembly that's a given. They are installed its just some have incorrect lock-wiring and some with incorrectly installed couplings. I think raptor did mention, it could be an error in the manual, or a certain wording of an assembly operation that's causing confusion among the fitters. Sometimes even the manual can be confusing as to what exactly its asking you to do, especially if its a newly written manual.

Yes, I suspect some sort of instruction document may have a problem. I really can't imagine how they can build something the size and scale of a 737 or 747 or 787 and have it all just work! AMAZING! I loved every moment at the plant, and wished mightily I could go back in time to my younger days. I'd work there!

That said, you still have the $28 an hour apprentice guy on the line bolting her together.

 

I wish I made $28 bucks apprenticing as an AME. Just barely over half of that. Jeeze I'm in the wrong outfit apparently

Houghton11.

MRO's are looking for people...

Just keep in mind the Aviation business is fickle and you can find yourself moving quite a bit. And it's not caviar and champagne dreams out on that ramp...

It breaks, You go...

 

Thanks Robert, you have a way with words that I don't. That is what I was trying to convey.

 

Raptor

I work at a pretty big MRO at the moment actually. I do some moonlighting help for a couple king-air guys and I found the smaller scale I really actually enjoyed. Family's been in aviation all my life so quite aware of the challenges . Just surprised to see one making so much on the manufacturing side of things!

 

Pay will always be an issue with these >12500 MRO's when you're competing with South-American MRO's and those less scrupulous-cheepy outfits down south. The allure of M2 (as we call it) maintenance has been lost on me for a while.