Honestly, I completely missed that official CS 777 airfile hotfix: Where can I find it?

 

The problems with the 777 Captain are not about development, they are about marketing, advertising, pricing and sales policies.

 

Do you think CS is going to "iron out ALL the bugs" on their 777? Have they ever finished their 757 and 767? Or rather the other way round, have they "copied" flaws and issue from the 757-/767-FMC code into their 777 FMC?

 

Yes, I could blame other developers, too. Even PMDG: They once enhanced their passenger version of the 747 by a freighter extension (some of those new freighter features would upgrade their passenger version simultaneously). Some time after selling the freighter/passenger upgrade, they would issue the upgrade (for the standalone passenger version ) for free. How does that feel after you paid additional money for their freighter expansion?

 

Aerosoft has just boxed an incomplete and buggy extended airbus. (Boxed, you got it? That is supposed to be a RTM!!!)

 

Wilco Publishing offered an evolution upgrade integrated in a bug-fixing servicepack for their airbus series. If I'm only interested in the bug fixes, I have to pay for the complete upgrade! There's no way around it to get the bugs fixed!

 

But the 777 Captain is in the 60 Euro market, their advertising is more "courageous" than that of other publishers and their development progress is slower and their communication to their customers is worse.

 

You're a customer and, what is more, a consumer: Stand up for your rights!!!

Finally, something to agree on its great somebody has got a better opinion I thank you for the great reply, and I think half the problem with the 767 and 757 was that they were actually not very into the project in the first place, I believe they do have some new updates coming for them though so yeah, and I agree, the AS AXE is actually not complete, nor is its older iteration of it. Im going to say, yes the 777 from CS is not complete as a user since what, 0.200 I think it was, but I honestly think this has potential to actually be a finalized product seeing the fixes and changes that have happened since that release. And I agree with the 747 thing, I was actually one of the people affected by it, but honestly, it didn't bother me because the 747 is quite a great product from PMDG, and its the same with every developer and also the pricing on the CS 777 is a little "arm and leg" if you know what I mean, its like a Lambo, it looks great, but doesn't drive as nice as the Ferrari, (not that the lambo is bad ) but I was actually one of the 9.99 dollar buyers when it was in beta so it hasn't bothered me as much. Im no future teller, but the future holds many unseen things and we may actually see CS complete a plane

How they have got many awards if their products are with bugs?

How they have got many awards if their products are with so bugs?

Well it's not like CS products were all that bad, graphically they are mostly top notch and especially the 707 seems to have pretty nice flight dynamics too.

 

Most of them just haven't had as many problems after the release as the 777 has had.

 

Although I'm disappointed with the 777 I will still enjoy flying their other products even if they do have some bugs, as long as I can complete a believable flight from point A to point B using at least mostly normal procedures I'm happy. Now of course those who wish to complete the whole flight actually flying using real world performance charts and completely real procedures might be disappointed even with these other CS products, but myself I usually don't bother doing every little procedure like in real world, just the most basic ones.

How they have got many awards if their products are with so bugs?

 

 

I own only their C-130 (FS9 version) and their 777 v1.0. I could report a lot of good things on their C-130 (there are even lots of good things in their 777; v1.0 does have potential, IMO).

 

But I can't explain those rewards. Have a look at customers' comments in the retailers' webshops, for example ...

 

Im no future teller, but the future holds many unseen things and we may actually see CS complete a plane

 

I hope for all those people who invested 40 or even 60 Euros into the 777 Captain that there will be "enough" updates to get it a good deal "more completed" and less buggy.

 

But imagine, some fancy demand rises for a completely new plane and CS wants to grab their share of the market with that plane - history tells they could simply drop the 777 for a new plane to make fresh money with ...

You folks need to understand something. Captain Sim is NOT PMDG nor have the claimed to be. They are two totally different companies in what they offer. YES Captain Sim has outstanding models and they are at times the best you can find on the market but their systems are NOT ment to be anything on the same level as PMDG and if some of you will take the time to read before pushing the "buy" button you would be better able to make an informed decision.

 

I know that patience is a scarce commodity these days but it seems that in the FS world it is non existant! If you are looking forward to the PMDG 777 don't go buying the CS777 and then complain that it isn't the up to par with the PMDG777....infact the PMDG777 isn't even out yet! For someone to come here and complain about wasting their money on the CS777 when they really wanted the PMDG777 shows alot of immaturity and impatience.

 

If you want the CS777 to get familiar with the systems, thats a different case all together but once again, you should be smart enough to READ what you are getting first before you buy. Ever since V1.0 came out I knew it wasn't a finish aircraft and CS stated that. So my advice.....please try to read, CS isn't perfect and you may not agree with their way of doing things but its your responsibility as a customer to make an INFORMED descision and there is plenty of information out there so there really isn't any excuse.

 

CS is committed to their products and if indeed CS were a shady operation I am hopefully at least that Avsim would not be advertising their products. The bottom line is that many of you want all the features in the world jammed into a product that cost 30 bucks and that just isn't going to happen. CS is not in the same league (systems wise) as PMDG but I am sure you will agree that visually they are at the top of their game.

 

Personally I like both PMDG and CS products for different reasons. The truth of the matter is that many of you use PMDG products to the equivalent of what CS offers in its entirety. This is perhaps why some will simply buy CS products because you don't have to read a 500 page manual to figure out how things work. Others prefer this method and they opt for PMDG, all in all it boils down to knowing what you want and having the patients to wait for what you want.

M., are you serious???

 

This is what Captain Sim themselves are currently stating on their own website:

 

"Step III: 1.0 - an official and complete public release." (You noticed the word "complete"?)

 

And ... yes: With 60 Euros for the 777 Captain they put themselves into the PMDG-league - so they will be measured by the "60 Euro-yardstick". Or would you like to argue that CS's graphics are so much better than PMDG's that it makes up for incompleteness and less system depth? And system depth, the degree stated by CS, still has to be developed after v1.0 ...

 

My 2 cents, anyway ...

Edited February 21, 201313 yr by olli4740

M., are you serious???

 

This is what Captain Sim themselves are currently stating on their own website:

 

"Step III: 1.0 - an official and complete public release." (You noticed the word "complete"?)

 

And ... yes: With 60 Euros for the 777 Captain they put themselves into the PMDG-league - so they will be measured by the "60 Euro-yardstick". Or would you like to argue that CS's graphics are so much better than PMDG's that it makes up for incompleteness and less system depth? And system depth, the degree stated by CS, still has to be developed after v1.0 ...

 

My 2 cents, anyway ...

 

 

I agree with you, I myself think they things should be a bit clearer. However CS has stated in their forums and on the main page of the 777 V1.0 base pack that this is only the beginning

 

http://www.captainsim.com/products/x777/sp1000.html - "The 1.0 is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning. (W. Churchill)"

 

Perhaps this should be clarified a bit more.

And I agree with you on that clarification needed ...

 

The Churchill quote to me is purely rhetorical and does not disclaim, from my point of view, any features of the product.

 

The nifty thing is, they frankly state that WX radar and EGPWS still have to be implemented. Readers' conclusion is, and that's confirmed by their "v1.0 complete release" statement, that all the rest IS completed in v1.0.

 

That's what I call "courageous advertising" ...

Which publisher would publish the 777 Captain in it's current state of v1.0? It's not a RTM yet, but CS has started to sell it for 59.99 Euros anyway.

 

And what would be the "verdict" of an Avsim review if this v1.0 would be reviewed, measured like any other RTM release?

 

By the way, there are a few reviews on the CS 777 v1.0 on the internet, not necessarily on avsim.com ...

 

I'm not putting down PMDG because I love their products, even their old 747, but the fact that a product is not totally bug free when it is released does not reflect the skill of the developer. Also, it does not mean that it shouldn't have been released in that state.

Look at the J41. It still has bugs, and it has been released for several years. Just try to turn on all of the options on the configerator. A major bug is then obvious, which PMDG has confirmed themselves (I'm glad they went ahead and released it with the bug).

It was quite a while before the NGX was released as a boxed product. Developers don't release the boxed versions until they are satisfied that the product is complete. That said, it's obvious that PMDG released the NGX download before they were completely satisfied that the product was bug free.

After the download release of the NGX, there were several patches and service packs to fix the bugs. No different than Captain Sim.

Captain Sim has said on his forum that they are still working on improving VNAV. When they are satisfied that everything is working as they expect, I'm sure you will see that announced on their forum and you will also see boxed releases published.

The real solution is...if you don't like Captain Sim's products, don't buy them...if you don't like the method that Captain Sim uses in developing products and releasing them as public betas, don't participate. Wait until it is released as a boxed product. What's the big deal?

And ... yes: With 60 Euros for the 777 Captain they put themselves into the PMDG-league - so they will be measured by the "60 Euro-yardstick". Or would you like to argue that CS's graphics are so much better than PMDG's that it makes up for incompleteness and less system depth? And system depth, the degree stated by CS, still has to be developed after v1.0 ...

 

Like I said before, the fact is that PMDG sells their NGX much cheaper than it really should be. They could sooo easily get over $120 for the NGX and sell a ton of them.

You just watch, when the Majestic Dash Q400 comes out in the "Pro" edition. I expect you will have to dig very deep to purchase it.

It will be the kind of money that PMDG should be charging for their products, but PMDG knows that they will sell much more volume than what the Majestic Dash Q400 will sell, thus the lower price. So PMDG can afford to give consumers a break on the NGX and probably also on the 777. That does not mean that the NGX or 777 is in a class that should be sold for under $100 (like the "teenyboppers" think it should be). It only means that PMDG chooses to sell it for way under the market value of the software.

Captain Sim's 777 is being sold for a reasonable price, for the kind of product that it is. Most likely, it could not be sold for over $120. It's just as simple (and really, just as obvious) as that.

I second lots of your statements. Yes, we will never get around this "customers equal beta testers" issue. And whenever I grab a first-time release, I know I take a risk of buying flaws and issues with it - to some degree.

 

Thing with CS is, they claim that v1.0 is a "complete" release (except for WX, EGPWS and TCAS, maybe) - which it isn't. I branded that "courageous advertising" - customers may feel fooled by CS, regarding the current state of 777 Captain. CS officially stopped their public beta when they turned from 0.9 to v1.0 - truth is, there still is no v1.0, just a good-looking and promising v0.95 ...

 

I would be fine with CS, if they named their current version 0.9x. With their own very clear statements in their CIP (Community Involvement Program) the rules would be pretty obvious to everyone who's interested in this CIP.

 

They have declared their beta stage is over, which is not true. So people like me bring up the issue of misl... oops, courageous advertising ...

The fact PMDG and CS sell their products in the same price range means nothing. Many developers have sacrificed the TRUE cost of products for the sake of making it affordable to the masses. If we were to pay the real cost of labor and time for making products such as the NGX and the Q400 we could never be able to afford it. Each developer sets their own price based on what THEY think is fair for their time and effort.

 

Think of it like the car sales market, two cars may cost 50,000 dollars but one may be a sports car and the other may be a luxury car....they cost the same but they are NOT in each others league.

 

If any petition should be made, it should be that perhaps CS clarify the status of V1.0 so everyone can readily understand what it is all about. The CIP program worked as described with the 737 but with the 777 it was a bit different in that more errors were found at the later stages of development. Each persons PC is different and everyone encounters different errors so its quite a task to have a stable product that works across the board.

 

As was mentioned before PMDG and even Level D has released products that had bugs but sometimes you only find this out after other use the product. PMDG and Level have been a bit more tardy in solving some of the issues but CS is not level D or PMDG and I believe they are doing what they can as is the case with all developers.

 

To the persons who are interested in buy CS products, my advice to you is to join their forums where you will find all the information you need to make an informed decision. The forums are open in that customers voice their findings whether good or bad. Some do it in a demeaning way but others do it respectfully and they get anwsers as I always have.

I agree to that sports car/luxury car comparison - good one; in terms of labour and other costs they could sum up to the same retail price.

 

"Issues" in releases are things, we have to live with - advertising and selling incomplete products as if they where finished is a "completely" different story. So once again I second that clarification on the current status (working features-wise) of the 777 Captain v1.0.

 

And just a few findings from the official CS community forum before I got banned there this morning:

- CS very niftily gets around answering some core questions.

- They amend posts to their own liking.

- They delete posts (which is their prerogative in their own forum)

- They close and delete whole threads (their prerogative, too)

 

So you may be mistaken when your decision is solely based on your findings "over there".

It would be good advice to have a look at the unofficial, less-if-at-all censored forums, like AVSIM, too ...

Shouldn't it go with out saying that when a developer releases a product that they will, with any conscience at all, continue to support and fix their product as a far wider user base than a beta team could ever be begins to use the product and problems arise? AXE and NGX both having had SPs does not bring them down to the level of a CS product. Almost EVERY FS aircraft add-on with any kind of complexity has patches and service packs. It is the nature of the beast. Even the all conquering Level D has SPs.

 

How ever, at least the AXE and NGX released as flyable products for the majority of simmers and those that had problems were actively helped by the developers. CS just uses this aspect to release their garbage prematurely and get your money and then move onto to something else while ignoring their customers. The 727 has been broke for years now... come on. And given their track record I wouldn't expect them to fix anything on the 777 as long as there are new models to be released and more cash to be collected. And whats worse is now CS throws it in your face by saying you can be a test pilot, you can help make it better by buying early and reporting problems. Translation: Give us your money now so we can give you a completely half assed product and ignore you from here on in. What a joke.

 

And there is no point in arguing with the people who think CS is great. It's like telling a Ford Pinto owner that their car is fundamentally flawed and that they will explode and die if they get rear ended. 'But it looks cool!'.

I like my Ford, too. But when I order a COMPLETE car, I'd like to get one with 4 wheels instead of 3.

 

 

And don't gimme that "Three wheels are not the end. They are not even the beginning of the end. But they are, perhaps, the end of the beginning."