I recall trying to find the largest aircraft able to land at SION and not being able to find it. Is there purely a rwy length v aircraft type rating in real life? I'm talking min rwy length v say a 737-800. I was sure the airport is required to advertise this. I'm assembling some 'stand it on its nose flights' and want to be able to take each of my aircraft into a minimum rwy length airport.

 

Jon

It is not as simple as a certian runway length can accomodate a certain aircraft. Many things need to be taken into consideration, winds, temperature, aircraft weight, aircraft configuration, obstacle clearance etc.

 

Airports will probably not advertise "You can land a 737-800 here" for the reasons mentioned above and company SOPs regarding runway length and usage. Plus, if you land there, it does not neccesarily mean you can takeoff there.

 

For example, a 737-800 coming in at max landing wieght (MLW) with no wind will take more distance to stop than the same aircraft landing with a 15kt headwind. The same goes for taking off.

 

Taking another 737-800, this time at MTOW, taking off at OAT of 5 Celcius will take less distance than the same aircraft taking of in 35 Celcius conditions. This is due to the air being less dense at higher temperatures and producing less lift force on the wings.

 

You must also consider the aircraft configuartion. On the 737, does it have the SFP? how many seats(pax) are you taking, how much luggage, etc.

 

All this being said, certain generalisations can be made, eg. if you have a 12000ft runway you will be able to takeoff in a 737, but if you have a 6000ft runway you might not, depending on the for mentioned factors.

 

So, in answer of your question, No, it is not as simple as having a "runway length vs. aircraft type"

It isn't based on aircraft type alone.

 

Individual aircraft types  have charts to determine the take-off requirements. for example the B737-800 has charts to calculate Field Length Limit Brake Release Weight based on Field Length Available, Runway Slope, Head/Tail Wind, airport outside Air Temperature, and airport Pressure Altitude. There are separate charts for wet and dry runways, flap settings, engine de-rating,  and engine air bleed settings. there are about 20 charts in all.

Have a look at this chart for wet runways. You can se that for what may be a perfectly safe rwy in normally dry conditions becomes lethal in wet/slushy conditions. For the pilot the decision must be cast iron and gold plated. If there's any doubt "at all" abort and go to an alternate!

 

Yes, I see what you mean. I would need to set the weather parameters to keep it within the envelope. Maybe it is folly to consider MLW but that's what I failed to mention last post. Possibly, I'm mad but I bet it's going to be fun. Thanks all for your responses.

 

Jon

Hi Jon.

 

Of more use to you would be to consider first how realistic you want your landings to be. As posted above, there are numerous factors to take into account in the real world but even Microsoft refer to FS as a game.

 

Weather (in FS9 at least) has no effect at all on runway/tyre friction so, unless you are determined to adhere (sorry...) to real world procedures, you can disregard a lot of advice. If you are happy to use full reverse thrust and full brakes from the moment the plane hits the ground, and are equally happy to perform a FS short-field landing in a fully laden heavy (full flaps, plopped down onto the end of the runway at stall speed) then you can get big planes into absurdly small fields.

 

For realism, I think you will have to search for specific operating handbooks as implied by the other posters, determine the minimum length for each aircraft, then experiment to see how closely FS imitates real life.

 

When all is said & done FS is a simulator, and a great tool for test-flights and experimentation.

 

Best regards,

D

 

p. s. I believe that TSR Autobrake allows you to modify runway friction for individual fields so you could model the effect of weather that way. If you can find it... I looked a couple of years ago but drew a blank.

No that's cool. Please help me here. I'm determined to get said aircraft full of merry making Scandinavian female skiers to SION, mid-winter. The crew will need to overnight at the nearby chalet but we will need to take enough fuel for a return trip as the fuel dude is on strike. Perhaps an ATR 72 500 would be a better choice. How many Scandinavian female skiers will one of them hold? As you can see. That's how realistic I want my landings to be.

 

Jon

How many Scandinavian female skiers would I want to hold? As many as possible!

p. s. I believe that TSR Autobrake allows you to modify runway friction for individual fields so you could model the effect of weather that way. If you can find it... I looked a couple of years ago but drew a blank.

Please explain. I'm not familiar with it. Is it an entry in the FS.cfg file?

 

Jon

Jon, a few addon aircraft in fs9 and FSX simulate runway conditions and brake temps affecting stopping distances. If your addon does not have it built in then you have a few options.

 

A simple google search will find what you are looking for.

 

TSR Autobrake

FSCaptain

FSPS

 

These are payware addons that run in the background, they work by reading the weather at field, depending on how intense the precipitation is your brakes will become less effective.

 

The only problem with external addons is they are probably designed generically, so if you plan on using real world performance calculations you wll likely end up off the runway.

Hi Jon.

 

Of more use to you would be to consider first how realistic you want your landings to be. As posted above, there are numerous factors to take into account in the real world but even Microsoft refer to FS as a game.

 

Weather (in FS9 at least) has no effect at all on runway/tyre friction so, unless you are determined to adhere (sorry...) to real world procedures, you can disregard a lot of advice. If you are happy to use full reverse thrust and full brakes from the moment the plane hits the ground, and are equally happy to perform a FS short-field landing in a fully laden heavy (full flaps, plopped down onto the end of the runway at stall speed) then you can get big planes into absurdly small fields.

 

For realism, I think you will have to search for specific operating handbooks as implied by the other posters, determine the minimum length for each aircraft, then experiment to see how closely FS imitates real life.

 

When all is said & done FS is a simulator, and a great tool for test-flights and experimentation.

My main aim is to shoot an ils approach into SION, successfully, under winter conditions with my PMDG NGX. I've never achieved it. So, until I want to face that failure, again, I'm going to perfect my hand flying techniques. I'm always too high on the approach. I've tried slow down and go down but it's as if you need to balance it on its wings, just above stall speed to make the approach. Maybe I'm reading the navigraph charts wrong.

 

Jon

Have a look at this chart for wet runways. You can se that for what may be a perfectly safe rwy in normally dry conditions becomes lethal in wet/slushy conditions. For the pilot the decision must be cast iron and gold plated. If there's any doubt "at all" abort and go to an alternate!

That's a very useful chart once you get your head around it. Real world pilots really need to know how to to aircraft stuff.

 

Jon

Hi.

 

I think the number of passengers will depend on the maximum weight you can squeeze onto the runway so you may not be able to take the full complement, especially if you have to fly in with enough fuel to get back home.

 

Googling '737-800 required runway', then Googling '737-800 demonstrated landing distance' gave the following:

 

The quote below came from a thread in Airliners.net It may be of use when you calculate your final approach speed. Vs is stall speed, in this case with the plane in its landing configuration. Vs × 1.3 is Vref. I spent some time a few months ago getting to know Captain Sim's C-130 by finding Vs at different weights, altitudes and flap configurations. I ended up making my own table of Vref for different circumstances. If you are consistently too high on final, you certainly need to practise; approaching at 1.3 times stall speed may leave the plane feeling sluggish (rather like a fat sailor in a boat on a big swamp), especially if it's still heavily laden, but shouldn't feel too insecure. I don't mean this to seem patronising but you may also benefit from practising scanning your primary instruments, to keep airspeed and vertical speed within appropriate limits.

 

"Definition of required landing distance:
The Required Landing Distance is the demonstrated landing distance divided by 0.6; demonstrated landing distance is based on a speed of 1.3xVs in landing config at the 50ft point; dry smooth level, hard surfaced runway; brakes fully applied, no thrust reverse.
Required landing distance wet is 1.15 times the dry one."

 

Finding demonstrated landing distance was trickier... you may have to experiment to obtain an empirical value. Come to think of it, that's probably essential as FS doesn't always match the real world.

 

Anyhow, if you intend to take the same skiers back out again (in a 737-800), you'll need at least 7900 feet, likely rather more at that elevation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_Next_Generation

 

 

What you want to achieve must be possible. The airport's own website (http://www.sionairport.ch/infos/type-aircraft.xhtml) has this photo, though it's a 767:

 

 

 

Also, take a look here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/59692767/03-Landing-Performance-737-678900-v14 It appears to be a PMDG publication. There is a 'Do not duplicate' on each page else I'd include a screenshot of the relevant table. Assuming you're flying the 737-800 NG your table is on page 3-5 though I haven't looked closely enough to work out what units the aircraft weight is given.

 

I trust this helps.

 

Cheers,

D

I've done my calculations amd a I can land an SVC10 at 60%auw equal to 201,000lbs at SION as long as the rwy is dry or braking action good.

In fact about three weeks ago I had an emergency and had to divert to said airport!

I have bookmarked the wikipedia page. It has everything. I am surprised that a 767 can land at SION but the shot of that 767 200, I think, landing there has me stunned. I think it's the best livery I've seen for a 767. The actual graphic is its strength and the continuation of the curve on the tailplane in a contrasting colour is pure genius. Reminiscent of a tail feather.

 

Jon

I've done my calculations amd a I can land an SVC10 at 60%auw equal to 201,000lbs at SION as long as the rwy is dry or braking action good.

In fact about three weeks ago I had an emergency and had to divert to said airport!

What, were you driving the plane? That would be so fantastic. Are you a SIONophile?

 

Jon