Haswell Worth It?

[Kaboki 437]

 

 

The chip you reference was overclocked using Liquid Nitrogen.

 

Is it possible to get a Liquid Nitrogen cooling system for home use? If so that's something I would want to have, if it makes 7Ghz clocks possible :rolleyes:

[TechguyMaxC 516]

Intel has won the desktop CPU wars (at least for now), and is focusing on the biggest threat to their business, ARM. Just about every tablet and smartphone on the market uses an ARM CPU (hundreds of millions of devices), which is providing ARM more money to bring out newer and more powerful models. Even Microsoft, one of Intel's strongest allies, has ported Windows to run on ARM CPUs. If Intel ignores this and doesn't do something about it, there is the real possibility that down the road, ARM could become the new CPU standard for personal computers. ARM is also looking to get into servers, which is not unlike how Intel used their cheaper x86 processors to knock out many of the high end workstation and server CPUs over the past 10-15 years (they even effectively killed their own Itanium line with the cheaper x64 models). To fight this Intel needs to focus on power usage, which is what Haswell is all about, far more than performance (and overclocking is even less critical). They certainly aren't going to get too hung up on a small market like flight simming, especially an unsupported sim like FSX.

 

True, Intel wants to break into the lucrative mobile market as evidenced by the release of two successive Atom designs in Medfield and Lexington.  However, the vast majority of Intel's profit comes from chip sales in the server, desktop, and laptop markets.  PC sales are declining, but since Intel is making moves to protect their margins they've been able to maintain their incredible quarterly and yearly profit numbers.  Artificially capping Haswell's overclockability does not benefit the thermal characteristics of the chip at the low end of the clockspeed range either, a soldered chip will output less heat and consume less power across all points of the spectrum. Yes, I'm sure it costs them less to manufacture with thermal paste (part of my overall point) but the only positive benefit for them is the possibility that end users may choose a more profitable Extreme chip over a K chip to get more clockspeed.

 

 

 

That may be so (the R&D costs being paid off), but it still doesn't mean it is cheaper to manufacture than their new method. They could very well have determined that the new way is cheaper and good enough for just about everyone except the minority that like to overclock.

 

Keep in mind that soldering the chips to their heat spreaders would not have increased costs in the slightest, this was already the standard methodology in place.  They changed this, to save cost and increase margin.  

^{Major Problems with Coollaboratory Liquid Pro Thermal Compound DEAD CPU.}

^{http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18063812} 

 

This isn't terribly relevant to a broad discussion of Haswell but fine.  Liquid metal products have some inherent risk in use, and the packaging and manuals are covered in them.  If you apply it incorrectly, severe damage to components can occur.  I see no evidence of anything other than incorrect application reported by a single user in the above thread.  I have done several applications of Coollaboratory's products, both Liquid Pro and Liquid Ultra with absolutely no issues.  Follow the directions to the letter and you will be fine.  

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

If I had an alternative to Intel I would switch in a heartbeat. Too bad AMD's CPU's are so far behind the performance curve on the desktop. Maybe in five years we'll have competition again.

 

In highly-threaded situations, the FX-8350 creams the 3570K, and even surpasses the 3770K in some cases. Applications and games are starting to become multi-threaded (I expect that to become more common after the new generation of consoles). As for single-threading performance, AMD is focused on improving that on Steamroller, while Intel is hitting a performance wall and disappointing overclocking enthusiasts. I don't think AMD is far from being competitive again.

[TechguyMaxC 516]

Is it possible to get a Liquid Nitrogen cooling system for home use? If so that's something I would want to have, if it makes 7Ghz clocks possible :rolleyes:

 

Not for long-term use, no.  In order for LN2 to cool effectively, it needs to evaporate (generally into open air).  This means your cooling chamber must be designed with an open top.  Since the LN2 is evaporating, you must replace it constantly.  Depending upon the size of your "pot" (the cooling plate and LN2 chamber), you might be able to get into the double digits of minutes of elapsed time before you need to refill.  

[westman 257]

 

 

Is it possible to get a Liquid Nitrogen cooling system for home use? If so that's something I would want to have, if it makes 7Ghz clocks possible :rolleyes:

 

Yes its possible , but nothing recomend :blink:

I have a KingPin Venom Pot and 2 Ln2 devars 20 and 40litre

[Kaboki 437]

 

 

Not for long-term use, no. In order for LN2 to cool effectively, it needs to evaporate (generally into open air). This means your cooling chamber must be designed with an open top. Since the LN2 is evaporating, you must replace it constantly. Depending upon the size of your "pot" (the cooling plate and LN2 chamber), you might be able to get into the double digits of minutes of elapsed time before you need to refill.

 

Ah ok, thanks answering my stupid question and for explaining how it works. :rolleyes:

[TechguyMaxC 516]

In highly-threaded situations, the FX-8350 creams the 3570K, and even surpasses the 3770K in some cases. Applications and games are starting to become multi-threaded (I expect that to become more common after the new generation of consoles). As for single-threading performance, AMD is focused on improving that on Steamroller, while Intel is hitting a performance wall and disappointing overclocking enthusiasts. I don't think AMD is far from being competitive again.

 

I'm sorry, but the situations in which AMD's CPUs are competitive with Intel's are few and far between.  There's a reason why AMD doesn't have a single product for sale in the consumer CPU market which sells for > $200.  AMD sacrificed single threaded performance with Bulldozer/Vishera with the design decisions they made, including but not limited to a full 50% reduction in the amount of integer units (ALUs) available to each individual core within a module, as well as instruction dispatch bottlenecks which limit the amount of instructions that can be "fed" to each core.  

 

AMD has a long way to go to make their chips competitive again, the architectural decisions they've made are easily identified, but not easily addressed without increasing cost, complexity, and lowering effective clock rates (something which Bulldozer greatly depends upon due to its long pipelines).  

Yes its possible , but nothing recomend :blink:

I have a KingPin Venom Pot and 2 Ln2 devars 20 and 40litre

 

Hasse, have you gotten a chance to play with Haswell yet?  I'm starting to see some better memory scaling potential from individuals over @ XS but most reviewers playing with stock chips and air/low end water cooling were getting worse scaling than Ivy.  

[westman 257]

have a Mobo , dont like that the retail chips seems very bad .

I can get a good ES after the competition at Computex wait for that now.

[CyberMike 18]

https://www.digitec.ch/ProdukteDetails2.aspx?Reiter=Details&Artikel=273464

 

Hmm, they have Haswell in my preferred shop, but I've never overclocked a CPU. Do I need special software or does Intel provide such? How far could I go

with the above?

Also they have a HD4600 onboard...what is that good for?

Thanks

[Tabs 2,790]

You need a motherboard and RAM that's capable of doing it. Unless you fully understand what you're doing, please don't just jump into trying to overclock - do your research first, there's plenty of guides out there.  HardOCP's review of the 4770K has the basics in it but you'll probably want to read some forums and see how others are successfully doing it too.

[CyberMike 18]

Thanks, the HardOCP's review of the 4770K is very useful. However I wonder if a Corsair H110 would be ok with a 4.5Ghz overclocked Haswell for running FSX or X-Plane with high settings? FPS should not be a problem anymore but maybe CPU heat?

Thanks

[ArjenVdv 190]

So it looks like we aren't going to see any major performance improvements in FSX anytime soon... I will just stick with my Sandy until it's dead then...

 

But, I don't think Haswell should be a step 'backwards'. If you're running Ivy or Sandy on 4.5-4.7 then Haswell should at least give you similar performance if you can get it up to 4.5... But of course temps should not be rising out of the pan.

[Great Ozzie 101]

Do I need special software or does Intel provide such?

 

Asus provides oc software (AI Suite) which I was successful using on my Z77 mb... but as Ryan said... you need to read up on this stuff at some oc forums.

 

 

Also they have a HD4600 onboard...what is that good for?

 

For one... it is good for testing the build w/o a video card installed.

 

The H100 you need to make sure it is compatible with the socket you are using.  I used that for my Ivy build and it seems pretty decent (no complaints but I am slightly concerned about that pump failing).  And I used an H80 for my son's build.  

 

There's an H100i now... so check compatibility with that one.

[Boomer 1,619]

-Intel still sells chips which use this method of heat spreader attachment, the Extreme line as well as the Xeon line.

 

Does this shed enough light on the matter to clear things up for those of you that had differing opinions?

 

Both CPUs are hideously and ARTIFICIALLY overpriced.

 

 

I love pc building & tech stuff. Wish I could find a way to make a career out of it.

 

You cant:  it doesnt pay well enough.  I know, I tried.  Big Box killed it.

So, I am to understand then that my over-clocked i920 D0 is in no need of upgrading to boost FSX performance?

[Noel 4,504]

 

 

So it looks like we aren't going to see any major performance improvements in FSX anytime soon... I will just stick with my Sandy until it's dead then...

 

Smart move!  There really is so little material benefit to anything after SB unless you're willing to de-lid.  I'm thinking of JUST NOW building a SB-E machine ;o)