I just came on to this thread and wanted to say that I purchased Pro Atc x based on the reviews here on Avsim and am quite happy with it. I allso own radar contact, PFE, and vox atc.  the only atc program I use is Pro Atc X. It  is working for me as I am expecting it. Not dissilusioned at all, thanks to any one who took the time to write here his oppinions .

The vocal minority always makes the worst out of eveything. thats just how it works There are many of us who bought ProATC and is quite happy about the way it works today. All my commercial flying is done with ProATC and it has yet to quit on me or giving me any bugs that I can't move around. Yes, I look forward to a new update wih new features, I look forward doing more GA VFR flights and AI control, but as with all software, things take time, especially when you are a one man developing team, but I knew this when I bought it, and I accepted it. To me, ProATC delivered what I expected at the time I bought it. Satisfied customers will never be outnumbered but always be outgunned when it comes to forumrants:-)

@ High Plains Flyer - Have you any idea how ridiculously dellusional you are?...... You refer to some reviews and opinions made by people, as "Fraud" because you don't agree with them.

 

Fraud, simply put, is lying.  If you say a product does X, Y and Z, and it does not do X, Y and Z, you have committed fraud.

 

The solution here is simple.  You simply do not state things which are not true.  You do not make claims about a product which are demonstrably false.  You tell the truth.  This is one of those basic Sunday school rules of life.

 

Whether a product functions as promised is not a matter of opinion.  It is a readily demonstrable fact.  It seems that many people here are unable to distinguish between facts and opinions.

 

What I find ridiculous about this community that people get ripped off, and other people like you try to shrug of the fraud.  In fact, you go beyond that.  You defend the fraudsters and attack their victims.  Blaming the victims really is quite shameful.  I just don't understand why you love fraud and theft so much.  You must be a Republican!

 

This state of affairs seems to be unique to the flightsim community.  Again, one does not find such widespread acceptance of fraud in other hobbies and other gaming communities.  Maybe that's why fraud seems to be such a major part of this hobby.

 

Of course, their are good developers who seem to take their reputations quite seriously and do not misrepresent their products.  I am talking about companies like Aerosoft, PMDG, and ORBX, among others.  I really have not seen these guys put out a product which does not do what it promises to do.

 

When people like you go beyond accepting fraud, and start promoting it as well, the entire hobby suffers.  I really don't think asking developers and reviewers to tell the truth is asking too much.

 

I'm not getting involved with the product discussion, as I dont have it.

 

I would though, as a long time Avsim member, like to show a HUGE vote of confidence and support to Jim (firehawk44).

 

Jim, IMO you are one of the finest moderators this forum has seen in my time here.  Both your patients (sic) and fairness are, IMO second to none!

 

Thank you, and ALL the Avsim team for their continued dedication.

This is quite a shocking thread now, from so many angles.

 

I certainly do not think Jim (Firehawk44) should have been made to feel the way he was in this thread.   It's been like a personal witch hunt , trying to lynch a guy just because he liked a product that some people didn't like.  Really quite shameful that some people put pressure on Firehawk44, a volunteer, giving his free time to contribute to AVSIM's running, to have to spend his day looking at all these ridiculous claims and responding to them.

 

Whatever happened to personal accountability? ............ You guys crying because you bought this product and do not like it, and wish to blame some AVSIM staff who do enjoy it, are just childlike beyond belief IMHO.........

 

We all read reviews on things, then make a purchasing choice based on our own judgment and findings......... to blame (and even talk about fraud and legal action) AVSIM staff because you bought something and didn't like it, is in all honesty comical.

 

This comment, from "High Plains Flyer", to Tom Allensworth, literally knocks me off my chair :-

 

 

 

 

@ High Plains Flyer - Have you any idea how ridiculously dellusional you are?...... You refer to some reviews and opinions made by people, as "Fraud" because you don't agree with them.

 

If you represent corporate litigation in the US, then it's clear to see why the state of litigation culture in the US has become so bad; ridiculed outside the US (don't worry guys, the UK is only one step behind).

 

We've all wasted money within this hobby ...... but 'wasted' is a subjective term.   To call it fraud or to try to apply legal context to "buying a crap product" just shows laughable immaturity and shallowness.

Sorry, but if threads get shocking, it's also because of replies like this one. I purchased pro-atc since the beginning and use it on every flight. Out of interest, I follow all the threads regarding this software. Am I not aloud to comment anymore? Do you need to bash everyone because of one persons way-over-the-top reaction? Are you a Pro-Atc user?

Let's all calm down and do some flying. That's what this hobby is all about.

 

Jos

@ High Plains Flyer - Have you any idea how ridiculously dellusional you are?...... You refer to some reviews and opinions made by people, as "Fraud" because you don't agree with them.

 

Fraud, simply put, is lying.  If you say a product does X, Y and Z, and it does not do X, Y and Z, you have committed fraud.

 

The solution here is simple.  You simply do not state things which are not true.  You do not make claims about a product which are demonstrably false.  You tell the truth.  This is one of those basic Sunday school rules of life.

 

Whether a product functions as promised is not a matter of opinion.  It is a readily demonstrable fact.  It seems that many people here are unable to distinguish between facts and opinions.

 

What I find ridiculous about this community that people get ripped off, and other people like you try to shrug of the fraud.  In fact, you go beyond that.  You defend the fraudsters and attack their victims.  Blaming the victims really is quite shameful.  I just don't understand why you love fraud and theft so much.  You must be a Republican!

 

This state of affairs seems to be unique to the flightsim community.  Again, one does not find such widespread acceptance of fraud in other hobbies and other gaming communities.  Maybe that's why fraud seems to be such a major part of this hobby.

 

Of course, their are good developers who seem to take their reputations quite seriously and do not misrepresent their products.  I am talking about companies like Aerosoft, PMDG, and ORBX, among others.  I really have not seen these guys put out a product which does not do what it promises to do.

 

When people like you go beyond accepting fraud, and start promoting it as well, the entire hobby suffers.

 

Can you tell us what "product functions" was promoted to get you to buy it and then you discovered it wasn't in it?

Can you tell us what "product functions" was promoted to get you to buy it and then you discovered it wasn't in it?

 

The answer really can be found in Agutz's March 19 post:  http://forum.avsim.net/topic/397951-my-little-pro-atcx-review/page-5

 

 

 

@ Simmer 2050:

"The future of addons in such a small community may yet be as ProATC and CaptainSim are doing, customers fund the developement, starting from beta stage. for this reason i purchased ProATC, to get another ATC option, but still a long way from installing it."

 

I like that statement. This may be the way development is going.

Bute there is a difference how CS and ProATC are doing it: Cs's 777 first release was clearly marked as being beta while ProATC from its beginning (June 2012) was advertised as being a fully developed ATC program. As a customer I would like to know at what development state an add-on is I'm buying.

 

I bought the Captain Sim 777 when it was offered in beta.  It did not work very well at first, but has improved over time.  (It still is flawed.) But that was the deal I made.  Captain Sim offered a significant discount and let everyone know they were getting a beta.  I took a chance knowing I was taking a chance.  I have no beef with Captain Sim.  I basically got what I was promised.

 

Black Box has been offering Airbus models in beta.  Because of their past difficulties, I do not trust them to deliver a fully functioning product.  So I have not purchased their product.  They disclosed that it was in beta, and I chose not to take them up on their offer, yet.  In this case, no deal was made.  I have no beef with them.

 

Similarly, Blueprint does not sell high quality sceneries.  However, they are pretty upfront about telling you this.  And the price reflects the lower quality.  So, no beef with them either.

 

The problems with pro-ATC could have been avoided easily if Pointsoft had disclosed that this product was a work in progress.  That's all;  if it's not finished, just say so.  That way potential customers can decide whether they want to hand out their money.  Perhaps some will not, knowing that they are dealing with a new and untested developer who does not have a track record of delivering a functioning product.  However, this product was represented as a finished product.  And it was priced as a finished product.

 

There is no fraud if there is full disclosure and everyone tells the truth.

The answer really can be found in Agutz's March 19 post:  http://forum.avsim.net/topic/397951-my-little-pro-atcx-review/page-5

 

 

 

I bought the Captain Sim 777 when it was offered in beta.  It did not work very well at first, but has improved over time.  (It still is flawed.) But that was the deal I made.  Captain Sim offered a significant discount and let everyone know they were getting a beta.  I took a chance knowing I was taking a chance.  I have no beef with Captain Sim.  I basically got what I was promised.

 

Black Box has been offering Airbus models in beta.  Because of their past difficulties, I do not trust them to deliver a fully functioning product.  So I have not purchased their product.  They disclosed that it was in beta, and I chose not to take them up on their offer, yet.  In this case, no deal was made.  I have no beef with them.

 

Similarly, Blueprint does not sell high quality sceneries.  However, they are pretty upfront about telling you this.  And the price reflects the lower quality.  So, no beef with them either.

 

The problems with pro-ATC could have been avoided easily if Pointsoft had disclosed that this product was a work in progress.  That's all;  if it's not finished, just say so.  That way potential customers can decide whether they want to hand out their money.  Perhaps some will not, knowing that they are dealing with a new and untested developer who does not have a track record of delivering a functioning product.  However, this product was represented as a finished product.  And it was priced as a finished product.

 

There is no fraud if there is full disclosure and everyone tells the truth.

You are still not being specific. Please, just give one feature that was promised in the features list page and wasn't in the product you bought. I can answer it, None. There has always been an updated features list.

 

As for CS 777, please don't go there for your argument's sake. I just have one word about it, VNAV.

High Plains Flyer, on 25 Sept 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

There is no fraud if there is full disclosure and everyone tells the truth.

Repeatedly accusing us of fraud, implying we are lying, has just got this guy banned. And now this thread is closed.