Many are gloating about Microsoft shutting down their Marketplace therefore affecting future purchases o Flight content. I must say many of us saw this coming since the release of Flight but it brought current community issues light in my mind. First of all thanks to pirates many things we use in FS after purchase is still controlled by a server that authenticates the applet everytime we use it. Gone are the days in many cases where you buy something install it and it's truly yours. The problem here is when said enterprise decides to close down most don't think of their customers and go the way of Ready For Pushback and totally give their product to existing users (should they need to reinstall it for their own personal use). They go the way of PSS and drop the ball leaving users with no way to authenticate the product should they have to reinstall.

 

Dealing with Microsoft has taught all of us not to stagger a product along like Flight but rather develop the whole thing, drop it on the market, and go from there. You piece meal a product along with scenery/aircraft every month you risk loosing the whole concept should Ballmer get a wild hair up his butt and discontinue the product line mid stream. I as well as others liked what Flight offered and actually purchased content for the program. It was a crappy concept that was insulting to our community but it had potential if it was allowed to continue. Heck, we got them to embrace TrackIR what else could we have done if it was in existence today? For what it was it could have been much worse. Now you have a product that's still being sold by MS yet now you can't get the little content that was offered for it. You can't build on the sim at your own free will like Flight Simulator before it and at this point you don't know when the plug is going to be totally pulled on the product leaving one to hope what the have already purchased/installed still runs without the MS server on the other end. MS could easily send something across the wire like they do updates that totally hoses one's install of the product once they decide to pull the plug. Again, many of us saw this coming when Flight was first released and questioned this. The Flight supporters were drinking the coolaide and assuring this could never happen.

 

Bottom line is in our community we need to look at this with a more objective view with our current developers. When we buy our content we need full control. This hobby on all fronts is too uncertain to be fine with Flight1, Activesky, and others stringing releases along that without their servers the product doesn't work. I've noticed many times using Activesky Evolution being kicked out at startup because it didn't recognize my licensing information. I had to go back and forth with Activesky as to what was the problem. They didn't see anything on their end and after two days the program worked again. What if Activesky closed it's doors, there goes a product I really love. The weather fidelity in previous versions of Activesky is not on the same level as 'Evolution' so reverting back to an earlier version devoids featureres (the older versions don't need server authentication with each use). Next we have Flight1 where one could have the product's installer but without Flight1's server authentication gauges won't run when the product is re-installed. I understand security and companies making sure their products aren't pirated but there needs to be assurance someone who paid for a said product can use their product whether a said business closes up shop. Imagine if the DC10 stopped working for airlines like FedEx because McDonald-Douglas went out of business.

 

Our community is getting smaller and smaller thanks to Microsoft/Ballmer closing Aces. With a smaller market can Activesky and companies like Flight1 stay in business (hell who knows what will become of Avsim if something happened to Tom but that's another topic). None of this stuff lasts forever but we should be able to use our purchased products no matter what the parent company decides to do. A lesson was taught here for those that embraced Flight, the same lessons businesses are learning with outsourcing their infrastructure to third party companies. Anything can happen when your not in control of what you own. I don't want Activesky Evolution to stop working if it can't contact the Activesky server. I should be able to still load it up and if nothing else use my saved weather and go from there (even if Vatsim is down). This trend of authentication or bust everytime a product is accessed is intrusive and in the long run screws the customer. The demise of Microsoft's Marketplace shows us that and it's only a matter of time before other other things get canned with Flight. The beauty of FS9/FSX is we control it and as log as we have the media we can use it, reinstall it, anytime we like (especially FS9). Just like when we buy a car, turning it on doesn't automatically send something back to Ford/Handa/etc in order for us to operate it. Bare in mind I'm only using Activesky and Flight1 as examples here as they are not the only developers operating like this.

 

Microsoft with W8/Flight/XBOX One is actively trying their best to do what Flight1, Activesky and others in this community have already done and that's trying to control pirating at the customer's expense. It's killing Microsoft on many fronts because legitimate customers aren't going for it. Pirates are a problem and for the most part I understand why developers are doing what their doing, just the same our FS products now have a time clock that is set to expired much sooner than they normally would based on the viability of the business behind them. Unlike Ready for Pushback's 742 which I can use for the next 20 years even though they've long since went out of business you won't have that option with anything purchased from many of our developers.

I tend to avoid the online controlled stuff, if I can. So don't bother me with Steam, Origin or.. Games for Windows live (which means 'offline' now). But avoiding isn't necessarily the answer, I think that the alternatives need some more attention. You may not get triple A titles over there but there are stores in place which stress that there's no activation and/or DRM in place. One for example is http://www.gog.com/. And they keep their word.

 

So there's a way out, same as there was a way in and 'everybody' just followed it without thinking. :mellow:

 

Now I wonder if your Active Sky example is a good one, Dillon. I mean it's mainly used to receive current weather data, no? And that has to come from somewhere. Sure, you can play it offline but that must be like World of Warcraft.. offline. Know what I mean?

 

But you are very right when it comes to just some planes or just some, I don't know, textures. Why do they have to be activated, why is there a need to check if you have changed your motherboard? Those are valid questions, especially since there still are devs around which don't rely on fighting pirates but on gaining more customers. A small but vital difference.

I tend to avoid the online controlled stuff, if I can. So don't bother me with Steam, Origin or.. Games for Windows live (which means 'offline' now). But avoiding isn't necessarily the answer, I think that the alternatives need some more attention. You may not get triple A titles over there but there are stores in place which stress that there's no activation and/or DRM in place. One for example is http://www.gog.com/. And they keep their word.

 

So there's a way out, same as there was a way in and 'everybody' just followed it without thinking. :mellow:

 

Now I wonder if your Active Sky example is a good one, Dillon. I mean it's mainly used to receive current weather data, no? And that has to come from somewhere. Sure, you can play it offline but that must be like World of Warcraft.. offline. Know what I mean?

 

But you are very right when it comes to just some planes or just some, I don't know, textures. Why do they have to be activated, why is there a need to check if you have changed your motherboard? Those are valid questions, especially since there still are devs around which don't rely on fighting pirates but on gaining more customers. A small but vital difference.

 

To clarify, initial activation is fine but the problem comes into play when in order to use said program your license has to be validated with each use. Activesky Evolution is bad with this (not to harp on them exclusively). Downloading weather is one thing but license authentication with each use is another thing. I hope I'm explaining this the right way.

Now I got you, Dillon. You've actually reminded me about the messages ASE gave me at every startup, on that news page I think. Maybe they've revised them by now as the text back then mostly spoke about how my access got logged and how I will be prosecuted in case I turn out to be a pirate. I would have preferred a neutral greeting instead (I've paid some 50 bucks, eh?) and a disconnect if I had been a pirate. Why allow a connection for them anyway? :huh: But maybe that's just me.

 

Well, mostly a subjective issue on this sort of 'greeting', I admit. But since my other online weather programs don't do it like that, I'm glad to report that this may actually be the exception form the rule. :Whew:

 

As said, I like to focus on the positive examples but I fully agree to your notes and valid questions.

I think there is a general movement to subscription based software.  I don't agree with it, but that's where they can make more money.  The bottom line is we purchase something non tangible, simply something that works on your computer.  I remember the days you bought CD's, floppy's, etc...I remember the first time I embraced "downloaded" software.  Now it its the norm.  I went to Best Buy and saw Microsoft office for sale for a one year subscription.  I'm not surprised unfortunately by all of this.  I don't think its going to get rolled back. 

 

VR

Todd

I think there is a general movement to subscription based software.  I don't agree with it, but that's where they can make more money.  The bottom line is we purchase something non tangible, simply something that works on your computer.  I remember the days you bought CD's, floppy's, etc...I remember the first time I embraced "downloaded" software.  Now it its the norm.  I went to Best Buy and saw Microsoft office for sale for a one year subscription.  I'm not surprised unfortunately by all of this.  I don't think its going to get rolled back. 

 

VR

Todd

 

With what Microsoft pulled with their Marketplace strongly shows this model is not tangible. XBOX One was almost a total failure out the gate because of it's pay per use model and policing of game usage.

 

http://bgr.com/2013/06/19/microsoft-xbox-one-drm-reversal/

 

 

This Ballmer mindset almost crashed Microsoft last ace in the hole (Windows and Office are failing at this point).

 

I was on Amazon the other day and wanted to watch the movie Brave with my son. The only option was to purchase it online with no media in my hand. There's no way I'm going to purchase content on a company's server that I can't get my hands on. When they pull the plug for whatever reason there goes my money.

 

A bird in the hand beats two in the bush...

There's no way I'm going to purchase content on a company's server that I can't get my hands on. When they pull the plug for whatever reason there goes my money.

 

Here's the problem in that, Dillion. Do you really want to watch that movie again in 20 years after you paid $10 for it? I say, ENJOY what you have right now. Like you said, you never know when it will end or what will happen after it ends, so why not enjoy the product/service now?

Here's the problem in that, Dillion. Do you really want to watch that movie again in 20 years after you paid $10 for it? I say, ENJOY what you have right now. Like you said, you never know when it will end or what will happen after it ends, so why not enjoy the product/service now?

 

The movie was an example but just the same most people have a personal collection that's been around for years. With the advent of DVD/CD's these products are designed to provide high quality for years to come. If it was all about today with no thought of the future we could just as well have stayed on VHS/BETA or records/cassettes for that matter. It was all about upping quality that would stand the test of time for personal use.

 

That being said our FS hobby is much more volatile than ever before with developers going out of business every other year (never thought I'd see the day Dreamfleet would be gone). Many of us have tones of products from Flight1 (just an example). If they closed their doors we would no longer be able to re-install products from them because we need their servers to fully activate the product. Same goes for Activesky, they go under you won't be able to run their product much less update it or install it from scratch if you need to. That's a huge problem in our FS world. Microsoft's answer to this is charge people for annual usage (even though it would be a cold day in hell before they totally go under, Ballmer would have to leave first). That model at this point would make more since for a company like Activesky as their not a billion dollar company and it cost money to keep servers going just to curtail pirates and monitor their products. Just like Flight and PSS we never know when it will be over with one of our critical products because we don't fully own them. I never thought about this before but in our hobby we not only have the issue of future OS compatibility, the clock is ticking on our products as well. There's quite a few add-ons that will not work without the vendor or developer's blessing for each use or each re-install... When PSS closed non of my installers worked when I migrated from XP to 7. You never think about this unless you have a major upgrade or your getting pinged your key is not working when you try to use a product like Activesky. At the time I had to repurchase the PSS 777 from JustFlight as there were no other serious 777's on the market (there still isn't in the case of FS9).

 

I understand the pirate issue but until a new solid platform is viable for our hobby moving forward (who knows XPlane could be it) the old way of doing business in this community needs to change. We are going to have hardware upgrades, companies are going to have to close doors, we may have to stick with Windows 7, we need to be able to use our products no matter what happens. We are small enough where some element of trust has to come forth. There are many examples like 'Ready for Pushback' were the developer is gone but their products can still be used. At this time we need more of that.

 

 

For the record I've found myself purchasing from SimMarket over the years for a reason that wasn't readily apparent. It was an after thought actually. But in thinking back and the way I was storing my purchased products I subconsciously realized they got it right all these years. As long as you had the registration key you could install and run your products without issue. They have very few exceptions to this rule. I don't have to access SimMarket for anything as long as I have the key for many of their products. If I have the key I can install products with no problem and without SimMarket's involvement. Everything was like this at one time until sites like Pirates Bay came into being. Now we may have to rethink going back to this as our community has gotten smaller. As an alternative I would pay an annual fee for usage of programs like Activesky to keep our developers making money with an agreement should they go out of business they provide the ability for current customers to continue to use their products without further authentication.

As Arnie on Ice Pilots said, "Hold onto your hats, boys!"

Times are a changing and PC gaming is coming to a end with Microsoft.  Microsoft has departed from it's flight path and has diverted to another destination. All the "engine whining" about Microsoft this and Microsoft that will not change it's heading (vision), which does not include PC gaming. 

 

Our hobby certainly is not dead, but it's time we accept change and ditch this old airline (platform ) that Microsoft created.  Ditch it's ATC (operating system) and move to something "We" have more control over.  

Remember the days you'd walk into the store and see "rows" and "rows" of PC games compatible for the IBM PC, and then looked at the small "row" for Apple software?  Well folks, we have "arrived". We now see that very small "row" for the IBM PC, and you can't get a good "Window" seat anymore either.  

Time to change Airlines...

RJ

Even the base product Flight Simulator X needs activation. If MS closes that server it doesnt matter how your addons install offline or online for that platform, your investements are gone.

 

-Kinetic

Even the base product Flight Simulator X needs activation. If MS closes that server it doesnt matter how your addons install offline or online for that platform, your investements are gone.

 

-Kinetic

"I guess it's back to FS9 boys..." I forget what movie I got a play on this quote from...

 

Anyway FS9 just needs the key and that's it. Not saying go back to FS9 for those that love FSX but with the crap Ballmer is pulling I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled plugs on anything that has to do with PC software titles at some point. It's clear there's no bounds Ballmer will go to push people to their current agenda. The planned cutting of XP support when much of the market is still using it is a good example. I mean local government agencies, FAA, FBO's, and businesses around the world still use it. XP is old but it still works (sounds like reasoning for FS9). The logic of some here in the Avsim forums is we need people off of FS9 in favor of FSX which is what Microsoft is saying about Windows 8 (something in which they control more, newer is not always better). I'd love to see what these same voices would say if Microsoft cut FSX activation using the 'out with the old in with the new' reasoning. Seeing it's such an old platform and we didn't buy into their 'Flight' endeavor why keep the activation server up (just like they did with their online Marketplace)? The old wisdom, "Their never going to do that" need not apply anymore. Ballmer and his teams narcissism knows no bounds. He doesn't care if he's hurting past customers or the built up relationship with hardware manufactures like HP/Dell who's partnered with Microsoft for years thanks to Bill Gates. Everything Bill has setup concerning the hardware software relationship Ballmer is pooping on. So you switch that into the context of our hobby the rule book has been thrown out with any software we use from them. The only thing that's assured like the case I was making with our developers is that we don't need them to run and enjoy our paid for products.

 

It's funny people around here most likely won't say much if Activesky went under where by we loose the ability to use Evolution or later products form them but let something go down with Microsoft/FSX (we know they don't care about this community and/or this hobby anyway) all hell will break loose on these forums and rest assured no one will listen, it's over. Sometimes certain things can go too far and we're at that point with activation and usage monitoring... If our developers like Flight1 agreed to honor our purchases should they go under that's another thing but usage monitoring (where you have to authenticate with them with each launch of the program in order for the program to work) like Microsoft wants to do and Activesky is currently doing is down right wrong.

Remember the days you'd walk into the store and see "rows" and "rows" of PC games compatible for the IBM PC, and then looked at the small "row" for Apple software? Well folks, we have "arrived". We now see that very small "row" for the IBM PC, and you can't get a good "Window" seat anymore either.

You don't see PC games on store shelves because most PC game distribution is done through online sources like Steam. Steam itself has almost 2,000 titles available, with more being added all the time. And the PC gaming industry itself was worth about $20 billion last year (which was increase over 2011). It isn't going to disappear anytime soon.

 

http://www.shacknews.com/article/78421/report-pc-gaming-software-sales-reached-20-billion-in-2012

 

Forgot to add that Steam runs on Mac and Linux systems too. While not all of the games run these two OSes, more and more are being ported to them. And if MS really drops the ball, PC gaming can move on, likely to Linux.

I agree with what you say goates, my point was Microsoft is dropping out of the PC game industry.   Just like their OS is slowly moving away from the desktop.  Time to move off Microsoft, and switch to Linux.  If only I could port FS9 over...

 

RJ

I agree with what you say goates, my point was Microsoft is dropping out of the PC game industry.   Just like their OS is slowly moving away from the desktop.  Time to move off Microsoft, and switch to Linux.  If only I could port FS9 over...

 

RJ

 

XPlane has a little farther to go in my book (world landclass, city scapes, improved horizon) where it would be a viable option to move over to for this community. From there I would happily install Linux Mint and be done with Microsoft forever (concerning home use). As I said above Microsoft doesn't have that much left to do that would totally screw up the foundation of our hobby. It wouldn't affect FS9 much but FSX could totally get screwed. I don't have much confidence in P3D either plus you can't use it on Linux. Let MS move on already as the collateral damage will be extensive anyway for companies like HP/Dell, server/network operations, programming solutions to name a few but we could save ourselves the hassle. Austin is moving slow as snails with XPlane improvements that would rival FSX. Maybe if we got fully behind him as a community things could move along faster. People say around here in the FSX forum if we all just move off of FS9 it would be a better world for FSX development. Actually the move needs to be off of Microsoft period. Austin at least cares about this hobby where as Microsoft under Ballmer's lead could care less. Being so dependent on a company that doesn't see and/or acknowledge you is a bad thing. Microsoft is on a path now we can't go in this community. We still need PC's and tablets ain't going to cut it...

 

If Microsoft pulls some crap down the road with FSX activation FS9 could be around allot longer than people think...

Time to move off Microsoft, and switch to Linux.

 

Yes ! :good:

 

I've done it years ago. No regrets. It's just great with X-Plane and FlightGear, all 64-bit flight simulators.

 

You'll find screen shots here:

http://forum.avsim.net/tags/forums/ubuntu/

 

And here's a link for you:

http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=2819