And I would imagine that many airports that are based in flat terrain won't even have such a SID.

To my understanding, EO SID is used whenever the airplane with an ENG OUT after V1 isn't able to clear Terrain if continue following on the SID. Its not part of the authority publiched SID like Robin had explained before but an operator option. Departure from 07L/R from Hong Kong being a typical example with Terrain rising to over 3000ft just south of the airport and straight ahead in 10nm, and EO SID which turns the airplane to the south over the sea at 8nm from ISR (07R ILS) and takes away the risk of turning too close the a hill. And I guess someone had used it before, so it is not as unreal as it seems. Airmanship wise there's no point to follow on the SID after ENG OUT to hit a hill, while EO SID give you a track away from terrain and you can use LNAV straight away, which effectively take off some workload from the pilots. ATC wise, an ENG OUT on a twin engine airplane most people will declare a May Day and do what you need to get the airplane back on the ground.

Some airport doesn't have EO SID and required pilots to manually steer the airplane away from terrain using HDG mode or will be able to continue on the normal SID after ENG OUT.

Just my too cents,

Mike

Yep that is correct.

And I would imagine that many airports that are based in flat terrain won't even have such a SID.

I cant remember ever having been at an airport for wich an EO SID was NOT published (by the company).

Even though terrain is flat, that does not mean there are no high towers.

 

If I remember correctly, it is a requirement that the operator makes sure the aircraft can be flown safely when an engine fails and must establishe procedures (EO SID) accordingly.

 

Maybe some companies will have procedures that say "in case of an engine failure, follow the normal SID" if obstacle clearance can be granted this way. And publish EO SID only when the normal SID does not ensure terrain/obstacle clearance.

But like I said I have not seen this.

Heck, we even have an EO SID for 22R at KJFK (pretty much straight out for 10nm and then enter a non published holding) where the normal SID takes you out over the ocean just the same!

(yes I would contact ATC and ask for radar vectors, but the EO SID is published)

 

 

It is possible for an EO SID to not be stored in the FMC database if the visited airport is not part of the regular destinations. Like a one time charter type flight.

But even in that case an EO SID will be available in either paper form or in the performance calculation tool on the laptop/EFB.

Just a heads up to anyone who wants to use EOSIDs / procedures / whatever...

 

[FAA Info]

As they're not published by the FAA, controllers are not required to know them, nor do they have access to them. If you fly it, you should advise ATC of this fact because they won't know what you're doing.

 

Note the 'should.' Fly the plane first, and communicate what you're doing ASAP. Nobody will fault you for trying to save the plane.

[/FAA Info]

I'm pretty sure I've seen EO SIDs in the Navigraph collection for a couple of airports. I'll see if I have time this evening to look them up. Certainly wasn't in the US.

Well, even if Navigraph has some variants of EO SID stored in their FMC database....if the PMDG 777 does not recognise an engine failure and/or does not react, by automatically activating that EO SID then its not of much use.

 

I mean you could have a look at it an memorise it, but to select it from the departure page then put the active waypoint on top in the CDU then activate and execute it would require a lot of heads down time again. Just like using route 2 would.

 

:-(

 

 

If I remember correctly, it is a requirement that the operator makes sure the aircraft can be flown safely when an engine fails and must establishe procedures (EO SID) accordingly

You are right. Generally there's company summary for each of the airports the airline flies to, which includes a guidance as to what to do in the event of ENG OUT after take-off. For example, it may say something like "if ENG INOP below a certain altitude and within certain miles from the airport, return to the airport and hold over the airport at or above MSA. Otherwise continue on the SID."  If EO SID is available it would probably say "EO SID available following by additional details as to what EO ACCEL HT the pilot should start accelerate and to retract the flaps etc etc" . At the end of the day its the pilots who decides what actions to take based on his experience. It is not necessary a spring-loaded decision. The good example is the the QF A380 eng out event in Singapore. The crew took their time, made up a plan then landed safely.

 

The airline has to do a performance analysis on every phase of the flight Departure, en route and Arrival. For example, there is a so called escape route for flights crossing the northern part of the Himalayan ranges on the way from Europe to the Southern part of (the general name of the airway is called "Y1" ), which in the event of ENG failure in cruise or depressurization, the crew will have to follow the escape route and drift down procedure to maneuver clear of the mountains.

 

Some of the escape routes are published on the Jepp enroute charts.

 

Cheers, 

Mike

out of interest with the driftdown question ( not the engine out sid.) 

 

Ill apologise for sounding rude in advanced , but are you actually going to get a plog with PROPER drift down data on it  (thats not easy for a start) youll need a lido, fw:z, HP or a jetplan ops control plog for that.  

 

Then your fuel up the 777 fly it out over 30 west and then do a rapid descent down to 120 to see if you got enough fuel to get to KEF or Gander ?  for what possible reason, why would do bother doing it ?

 

Mate im all for realism but sometime simmers do make me laugh sometimes

out of interest with the driftdown question ( not the engine out sid.) 

 

Ill apologise for sounding rude in advanced , but are you actually going to get a plog with PROPER drift down data on it  (thats not easy for a start) youll need a lido, fw:z, HP or a jetplan ops control plog for that.  

 

Then your fuel up the 777 fly it out over 30 west and then do a rapid descent down to 120 to see if you got enough fuel to get to KEF or Gander ?  for what possible reason, why would do bother doing it ?

 

Mate im all for realism but sometime simmers do make me laugh sometimes

PFPX generates ENGINE OUT and DECOMPRESSION scenarios. Anyone that owns the program (releasing on the 28th August) will have the neccesary data on their OFP's.

 

There will be no need to have access to the commerical flight planning software that you mentioned.

Haha yes, but what I think is, if PMDG777 does indeed had the level of realism to simulate some typical failures which occurs routinely in simulator checks for pilots ie eng faliure at cruise, emergency descent, eng out approach with AP on etc. They can market it to airlines or the pilots so that they can do a little bit of practice at home before the sim.

 

On the other hand it is good for people who wants to be an airline pilot to gain a deeper knowledge as to how failures are handle in real life. So it not bad thing after all.

 

The drift down at cruise after a single ENG failure can be a very very slow process which takes ages to descend to the FM indicated drift down altitude, unless the crews need to do an emergency descend or to do a windmilling relight or smply to accelrate to the Eng out Long range cruise speed for diversion then they will need to descend a bit faster.

 

The single engine level out Alitude for the big twins (A330/777) I know is roughly between FL180-FL300 depends on weight. The FM fuel prediction will take the ENG failure into account. On a twin jet, flying on ETOPS you should always have fuel to reach the closest suitable Alternate. In a quad jet is never a problem for a single ENG failure and there is no requirement to land at the nearest suitable airport.

if you have a rapid decompression and you keep  flying at 180 to 300 your wont be alive for that  long mate !!! 

 

we shall see with this PFPX software.. etp data ( which is what imagine it will have)  is completely different to drift down and advanced drift down data and wet foot prints.

 

And being in the business myself, theres no way a driver is going to spend 6 hours of his life doing an drift down divert on fsx a week before his loe 

 

 

if you have a rapid decompression and you keep  flying at 180 to 300 your wont be alive for that  long mate !!!

 

If you stay on oxygen you will be fine, its the passenger masks that have the 10 minute limit (chemical generator) while the crew bottle can last for at least an hour IIRC. The only time I would see the need to stay high for decompression is when you have high terrain such as a mountainous region.

out of interest with the driftdown question ( not the engine out sid.)

 

Ill apologise for sounding rude in advanced , but are you actually going to get a plog with PROPER drift down data on it (thats not easy for a start) youll need a lido, fw:z, HP or a jetplan ops control plog for that.

 

Then your fuel up the 777 fly it out over 30 west and then do a rapid descent down to 120 to see if you got enough fuel to get to KEF or Gander ? for what possible reason, why would do bother doing it ?

 

Mate im all for realism but sometime simmers do make me laugh sometimes

Rather than apologising....how about being not rude to begin with?

 

Anyone can do as he pleases and if the desire is to fly an ETOPS driftdown scenario then so be it. Who are you tell anyone that is silly?

 

Ofcourse it is your right to think that is silly, but I dont see why you have to write that.

 

I am all for diversions. Way more interesting to have a sudden engine failure, replan and divert than to go on the plannend route. tests your skills!

Well, even if Navigraph has some variants of EO SID stored in their FMC database....if the PMDG 777 does not recognise an engine failure and/or does not react, by automatically activating that EO SID then its not of much use.

 

I mean you could have a look at it an memorise it, but to select it from the departure page then put the active waypoint on top in the CDU then activate and execute it would require a lot of heads down time again. Just like using route 2 would.

 

:-(

When I said Navigraph I meant the nDac chart collection, not the FMC database, sorry about the confusion. I wasn't adding to Kyle's post on EO SIDs being published or not.

If you stay on oxygen you will be fine, its the passenger masks that have the 10 minute limit (chemical generator) while the crew bottle can last for at least an hour IIRC. The only time I would see the need to stay high for decompression is when you have high terrain such as a mountainous region.

Depends on the generators.

The ones I am familiar with go for over 20minutes!

 

Also I think you were talking engine out performance max FL 180 - 300 right.

This has nothing to do with decompression so I dont know why he brought that up.

When I said Navigraph I meant the nDac chart collection, not the FMC database, sorry about the confusion. I wasn't adding to Kyle's post on EO SIDs being published or not.

Ah ok, checked.

Yes charts would be usefull and fun (even if they are not in the database).

 

I think the addon approaching Innsbruck also comes with Engine Out charts.

Just a heads up to anyone who wants to use EOSIDs / procedures / whatever...

 

[FAA Info]

As they're not published by the FAA, controllers are not required to know them, nor do they have access to them.  If you fly it, you should advise ATC of this fact because they won't know what you're doing.

 

Note the 'should.'  Fly the plane first, and communicate what you're doing ASAP.  Nobody will fault you for trying to save the plane.

[/FAA Info]

Kyle you've just contradicted yourself mate

 

Earlier you said there are no such animals as engine out SIDs rather procedures, then went on about leprechauns

 

Your FAA docs say otherwise as do a host of other manuals.

 

There are EOSIDS..and as 777simmer mentioned in specific areas. With  RNP AR procedures they will self present when certain parameters are reached via the air data computer and other engine monitoring instruments. All the crew needs do is select it and the aircraft flies it.

 

In some areas ATC are not aware of these as they change from company to company as you correctly say.

 

Your USA centric mentality works in the USA, but not necessarily for the rest of the more advanced aviation countries around the world. 

 

Here, as in other areas of the advanced aviation world,  we have RNP AR EOSIDS published so ATC are aware of them. 

 

and we dont have leprechauns