Hello guys i would like to know what approach do you perform when ATC controlers are present?

 

 

Just for know if i do wrong or not, actually i do that:

 

 

Example i fly heading 360° below FL100, runway in use for landing is 05, an ATC controler say me "turn right heading 020° i change VNAV to FLCH because the way is more shortly than the VNAV profile, if necessary i put V/S.

 

Same example:

 

an ATC controler say me "turn left heading 340°" i stay in VNAV mode because the way is more longer than the original profile.But if he say " turn left heading 340° and maintain 4000ft" i switch on FLCH too.

 

Now if he say me "reduce speed 210 kt" i switch in FLCH because the plane take a little time o reduce speed and i will stay a little highter than the VNAV profile calculated and i don't want VNAV put the plane down with hight ft/mn (im playing with Fs passenger addon too).

 

When i see there only little restriction send from ATC controlers, i can swith another twice in VNAV when the plane is come back slowly to the profile.

 

 

 

So, what do you do guys?

 

 

Example i fly heading 360° below FL100, runway in use for landing is 05, an ATC controler say me "turn right heading 020° i change VNAV to FLCH because the way is more shortly than the VNAV profile, if necessary i put V/S.

 

While there isn't any right or wrong answer, really, either would be acceptable.  My rule of thumb is:

Am I on LNAV?

--Yes.  Use VNAV where possible.

--No. Use FLCH or VS.

 

Just remember that FLCH will protect your speeds by adjusting VS.  VS will not protect your speeds if you use a vertical speed so high or low that it accelerates beyond the plane's max climb power, or max idle descent.

 

 

 

An ATC controler say me "turn left heading 340°" i stay in VNAV mode because the way is more longer than the original profile.But if he say " turn left heading 340° and maintain 4000ft" i switch on FLCH too.

 

I think you're over thinking it here.  There's no harm in turning off VNAV and turning it back on later.  If you're turned off of the magenta line, you're not on that FMC calculated path that the VNAV path is defined by.  In those cases, just use FLCH or VS.  What you're doing isn't wrong, though, as long as you're meeting the expected actions and crossing restrictions.

 

 

 

Now if he say me "reduce speed 210 kt" i switch in FLCH because the plane take a little time o reduce speed and i will stay a little highter than the VNAV profile calculated and i don't want VNAV put the plane down with hight ft/mn (im playing with Fs passenger addon too).

 

First, FS Passenger's vertical speed monitoring should be turned off.  Vertical speed is not something that causes discomfort.

 

What you're doing seems to be okay.  You could also dial in a low vertical speed and a speed of 210.  I tend to do that instead, unless ATC says "reduce speed immediately."  ATC knows that aircraft are difficult to slow when descending, but the ideal case is one where you slow down while still descending.  So, I tend to dial in something from 500-1000 VS and then roll the speed back to the assigned speed, and adjust the VS to get an acceptable deceleration to me.  If ATC doesn't like it, then they will tell you.

 

It all depends on the facility and the procedure.  Some facilities like MIA and SoCal like to do what pilots call a "slam dunk" where they bring you in high, and then dunk you in.  In those cases, you'll want to reduce speed and get some drag out (flaps / gear / etc) to whatever speed restriction you're given, and then use FLCH to get the max vertical speed for that speed in the descent.

Ok, this is very nice, thanks a lot for this complete answer

 

 

This plane is very great and it's a real pleasure to flight it online with ivao or vatsim  B)

 

 

Ok, this is very nice, thanks a lot for this complete answer

 

You're welcome.  It was a good question!

 

 

It all depends on the facility and the procedure. Some facilities like MIA and SoCal like to do what pilots call a "slam dunk" where they bring you in high, and then dunk you in. In those cases, you'll want to reduce speed and get some drag out (flaps / gear / etc) to whatever speed restriction you're given, and then use FLCH to get the max vertical speed for that speed in the descent.

Gosh wasn't it a slam dunk approach that got that Turkish 737 in trouble at EHAM? How well does a big jet handle these or is it recommended?

Gosh wasn't it a slam dunk approach that got that Turkish 737 in trouble at EHAM? How well does a big jet handle these or is it recommended?

Intercepting the G/S from above isn't recommended, but it didn't cause that crash. A failed radio altimeter contributed, but the main factor was not one of the 3 pilots monitoring air speed.

Gosh wasn't it a slam dunk approach that got that Turkish 737 in trouble at EHAM? How well does a big jet handle these or is it recommended?

It's not what you're thinking...

 

A slam dunk approach isn't really an approach at all. They're more like STARs, in reality, or the procedure between the STAR and the approach itself. It not an official, charted thing, either. Basically, ATC keeps you high (and potentially fast) above most aircraft clean idle descent paths, and then gives you a later descent. It's called a slam dunk because you have to descend rather rapidly after being kept high. Facilities like SoCal do it to keep aircraft above terrain and other airport arrivals. If you ever fly a STAR and you're meeting the altitude restrictions, but have your spoilers out the whole time and it's still difficult, particularly toward the end of it, you're likely flying a slam dunk approach. LAX and SFO have a few.

 

Granted, if you look around the interwebs there are a few different definitions of what the slam dunk really is, but my interpretation is just that you're hot, high, and close in to the airport. This goes against the other definition out there where people believe it's that you get brought in above the glide slope, which does occasionally happen. I prefer the earlier definition, though, because you can be slam dunked on downwind and still end up on glide slope by the time you turn final if you do it right.

 

The controllers at Potomac would do it with the Colgan SAABs, but somewhat unintentionally. Because the other jets needed the time to descend and slow down, they would occasionally clear a SAAB for a visual off of the HYPER/BARIN (essentially on downwind at the point they were cleared) cutting in line from behind the other plane(s). They knew they'd be able to slow down and go down before the other the leading jet(s) would be back in close on the visual. Most of my friends preferred the Dowty-equipped aircraft for this purpose (as opposed to the HamStands) - with the condition levers full-forward, the props would generate a good amount of drag when the power levers were pulled back. Makes it easy to quickly kill speed and/or altitude in situations like that.

Be calm and polite at all times, and make doubly sure the microphone is off before you curse them to hell and back. They do keep grudges...

Dowty-equipped aircraft for this purpose (as opposed to the HamStands

 

The what now?!

The what now?!

 

haha - Colgan operated SAABs with both Dowty props and Hamilton Standard props.  The latter were referred to as "HamStands."

Ahh! I've heard of Hamilton before, but only because they were the unfortunate manufacturer of a prop that failed (might have been on a SAAB actually) and subsequently caused the aircraft to crash, as featured on air crash investigation.

 

 

(might have been on a SAAB actually)

 

EMB-120 - ASQ529 and ASQ2311

 

Same prop manufacturer.

That's the one, thanks.

If I'm given a heading or speed restriction I revert to AP basic modes - stuff the FMS. B)

 

Given a heading? Heading select.

 

Given an altitude? FL CH.

 

Only if I'm given direct to a fix or told to resume the flight plan do I engage LNAV as the result of an ATC instruction.

 

If I'm given "descend xxx at own discretion" and it matches my flight plan as programmed, then I'll just let VNAV do its thing, but if a parameter is out of whack and it requires I edit the FMS -> use AP basic mode and fix it later.

 

I found it quite funny/sad how some people were apparently slaves to the box during CTP. They seemed unable to forget it and just use the basic autopilot (or even hand fly) to get the aircraft to where they needed it. One guy bust his approach because of it.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

I found it quite funny/sad how some people were apparently slaves to the box during CTP. They seemed unable to forget it and just use the basic autopilot (or even hand fly) to get the aircraft to where they needed it. One guy bust his approach because of it.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

 

I fully agree with you Robin. In each part of the FCTM regarding autopilot use you can read that if LNAV/VNAV doesn't do what you want you shall simply turn it off.

The biggest Facepalm I ever had was due to a guy on the DOMUX2G STAR for runway 05R in Düsseldorf (for those who don't know it: It's almost only a stright line bringing you right into the downwind) in perfect VMC conditions and he told ATC that he was unable to follow ATC's instructions because his Autopilot wasn't doing what it should. He caused 3 go arounds because his AP flew him right into the final approach and he did not even think of turning his AP off or reverting to a simpler mode.