some of the most anxious ridden moments of the "flight" are waiting for the crossed sticks at the end of the taxi and hoping the marshall doesn't inform you that that wasn't a very good parking job LoL!

 

For what it's worth - as someone who did that for years - that guy sucks at his job.  Most of the time, if your parking job sucked, it's because he didn't stop you in time.

I suspect it has occurred numerous times as the FWD equipment and E&E bay doors are easy to miss on the 737 unless you bend down to look at it.Regards

I doubt this happens at all, if ever. I've never heard of any such thing. Firstly if either of the E&E doors is not closed it is immediately obvious during the walk around and the door handle stands proud if the door is closed and not properly latched.

 

Also, the ground engineer has to confirm that all ground checks are complete and that all doors and hatches are closed before clearing the crew to pressurize the hydraulics. In the flight deck during preflight the Captain performs a lights test. Before contact the ground engineer the crew will check door light annunciations to ensure that the CC have closed the doors and the loading of cargo and bags has finished. Even if the crew managed to miss the Master Caution system annunciation all the way up to this point, the Master Caution recall system is checked as part of the before taxi procedure, which would make it completely and utterly obvious.

First - as I've said multiple times - this door is a maintenance door.  Unless maintenance has been on the plane, working in that bin, it will never be opened.  It would be akin to opening engine access or APU access panels...you know...just because you could open them...

 

In other words, it does not see normal use in the day to day operation of the aircraft.

 

Second - as far as the ground crew is concerned, they may or may not spot it.  The ground crew is supposed to give a pre-departure walk around just prior to the push (and one when the aircraft arrives, prior to servicing), but they might not spot it.  Again, this is because it's hardly ever touched, so it's probably not the highest on their mental list of things that should be checked (unless they saw a maintenance van sitting there working in that area in the turn).  Check, check, and recheck those annunciator lights.  When I worked the ramp, the most common question from the crew was "hey, can you go open and reclose the baggage door?"  They check the lights, and they'll use the ground guys to confirm.

 

Third - at least for the operators I've worked with - there is no clearance to pressurize anything.  The MCD closes, and the beacon goes on.  That's the signal to the ground crew that control surfaces may move, and the MCD should not be opened.  Permission isn't asked for that to happen.  The only clearance given was the all-clear for the engine start.

Customs can open these and pretty much any panel they feel like. I don't agree with it but they can

First - as I've said multiple times - this door is a maintenance door.  Unless maintenance has been on the plane, working in that bin, it will never be opened.  It would be akin to opening engine access or APU access panels...you know...just because you could open them...

 

In other words, it does not see normal use in the day to day operation of the aircraft.

 

Second - as far as the ground crew is concerned, they may or may not spot it.  The ground crew is supposed to give a pre-departure walk around just prior to the push (and one when the aircraft arrives, prior to servicing), but they might not spot it.  Again, this is because it's hardly ever touched, so it's probably not the highest on their mental list of things that should be checked (unless they saw a maintenance van sitting there working in that area in the turn).  Check, check, and recheck those annunciator lights.  When I worked the ramp, the most common question from the crew was "hey, can you go open and reclose the baggage door?"  They check the lights, and they'll use the ground guys to confirm.

 

Third - at least for the operators I've worked with - there is no clearance to pressurize anything.  The MCD closes, and the beacon goes on.  That's the signal to the ground crew that control surfaces may move, and the MCD should not be opened.  Permission isn't asked for that to happen.  The only clearance given was the all-clear for the engine start.

 

I have no experience in the care and maintenance of any kind of aircraft, and I defer completely to others expertise in the fact that the equipment hatch on a 737 never gets opened 99.5% of the time during normal flight operations, but I have to say from what I saw with my own eyes I saw the hatch opened and a maintenance person, actually two, poke their heads up into the space, with a cart next to them and they did "something" in there  All while the plane was sitting at the gate.

 

I've always been fascinated by large jets and so I actually watched them the entire time while the wife was off buying coffee.  When they were finished (about 15 minutes) they actually had some trouble closing the door.  It looked like they worked at it for another 2 or 3 minutes scratching their heads until I guess they finally closed it.  Most of the time I just saw their legs and lower bodies.

 

They gave the other ground crew a thumbs up, and spoke to the pilot on the link for a long time after that...  The funny part?  After they were all done and had left for about 10 minutes, one of the maintenance guys came running back, crouched down while he looked up at the underside of the plane, ran his hand over something, and then ran back out with another thumbs up.

 

I guess what I saw was the .05% occurence, but then again, aren't all fatal air crashes that .01% or combination thereof of unlikely, "never usually happens" events?

 

I think I saw an Air DIsasters episode where two senior pilots, both with thousands of hours on the plane type they were flying, and they both overlooked the fact that the flaps were up at take off.  The comedy of errors that would lead to the equipment hatch being open and taking off that way doesn't seem so completely implausible with that as a comparison :(  Particularly since everyone on that plane died :(

First - as I've said multiple times - this door is a maintenance door.  Unless maintenance has been on the plane, working in that bin, it will never be opened.  It would be akin to opening engine access or APU access panels...you know...just because you could open them...

 

In other words, it does not see normal use in the day to day operation of the aircraft.

 

Second - as far as the ground crew is concerned, they may or may not spot it.  The ground crew is supposed to give a pre-departure walk around just prior to the push (and one when the aircraft arrives, prior to servicing), but they might not spot it.  Again, this is because it's hardly ever touched, so it's probably not the highest on their mental list of things that should be checked (unless they saw a maintenance van sitting there working in that area in the turn).  Check, check, and recheck those annunciator lights.  When I worked the ramp, the most common question from the crew was "hey, can you go open and reclose the baggage door?"  They check the lights, and they'll use the ground guys to confirm.

 

Third - at least for the operators I've worked with - there is no clearance to pressurize anything.  The MCD closes, and the beacon goes on.  That's the signal to the ground crew that control surfaces may move, and the MCD should not be opened.  Permission isn't asked for that to happen.  The only clearance given was the all-clear for the engine start.

 

Couple of things:

 

Doors, there are two of them, fwd and aft of the nosewheel. Really, it makes no difference if it is a maintenance door or not, mistakes happen and the door maybe left open or not closed properly. Think British Airways A320 that took off with all the access panels on the engines open ripping off the cowlings off and having to return with stalling engine(s)!!

 

The equipment doors are in the direct line of site of the ground engineer during startup and pushback. Also it is nearly impossible to do a walkaround and not see that a handle isn't flush or the door is wide open.

 

Totally agree with check the annunciations. In the real aircraft it is nigh on impossible not to see the master caution illumination. In NGX, of course it doesn't really stand out, so it is understandable that something wasn't noticed, but for real, if the door is not shut properly it will be clear as day.

 

As an aside, permission is required to pressurize the hydraulics - either the bypass pin is installed or Sys A has to remain off until pushback is complete - only the ground guy can verify this. Granted, probably not required for just a start and taxi, but makes sense to keep it standard.

 

 

Doors, there are two of them, fwd and aft of the nosewheel. Really, it makes no difference if it is a maintenance door or not, mistakes happen and the door maybe left open or not closed properly. Think British Airways A320 that took off with all the access panels on the engines open ripping off the cowlings off and having to return with stalling engine(s)!!

 

For the record, I'm not saying they're not a problem, or shouldn't be checked.  Nowhere in any of my posts did I say that.

 

What I said is that David is setting himself up for failure by opening them in the sim as a regular thing.  The sim doesn't have a decent simulation of a walk around, which is where you'd first spot it, and it doesn't have a ground crew sim that could back him up in spotting it.

 

My assertions about it (them) being (a) maintenance door(s) were only related to the fact that they're not opened and closed regularly like baggage doors.

 

 

 

As an aside, permission is required to pressurize the hydraulics - either the bypass pin is installed or Sys A has to remain off until pushback is complete - only the ground guy can verify this. Granted, probably not required for just a start and taxi, but makes sense to keep it standard.

 

Where are you flying?  I've never been asked permission for anything other than engine start.  If it was a bypass pin, it was either installed by the crew (SF34s), or inserted by the ground crew without communication some time during the turn.  The only communication about it was similar to what you hear in the PMDG pushback dialogue, or simply the ground guy waving it at the crew while walking away.  If you needed to leave a system off, you'd just leave it off and then pressurize after the ground guys walk off.

 

In the States, I think the ground crew plays a lot more of a subservient role than elsewhere.  My thought is that it's different here because in most of the other places, the pilots can actually communicate with the ground crews...

 

Even when I worked at a more organized carrier who had a stricter hiring standard for english language, we still didn't coordinate anything verbally other than engine start.  Even though the CL65 had a specific switch for nosewheel steering, it was implicit on us walking off that it was "approved."  We only communicated if the crew turned it back on prematurely such that we couldn't get the steering linked back up.

All secure below, release brakes and cleared to start engines are all we hear from our ground crew.

 

 

In the States, I think the ground crew plays a lot more of a subservient role than elsewhere. My thought is that it's different here because in most of the other places, the pilots can actually communicate with the ground crews...

I never really thought much about it, as both airlines I flew for used the same procedure! To me, I guess it makes sense as Sys A should not be energized without the pin in when connected to the bar and only the ground guy is responsible for that and can thus confirm it. It is my assumption that this is the background to that procedure.

It really is fun James! I have several friends who fly for VA airlines and I've noticed that many of them are all about how many flights and how many hours and flight miles they can accumulate in the shortest amount of time. They start flights from the active and end them at wheels stop at the end of the runway. There is nothing wrong with this of course, but for me, that connects you mainly with the flying , whereas using all of the add-ons for ambience and aircraft detail, you become connected more not only with flying, but with the aircraft itself. For me specifically, that makes the experience far more real and engaging.

 

Listening to the first officer rustling thru paperwork in the cockpit as I'm programming the FMC, Having the flight attendant knock on the door and ask if its ok for the agents to start boarding the plane, hearing the people actually getting on the plane, Hearing the "beep beep beep" outside of the ground equipment moving around the plane. It just kind of does it for me LoL!

 

At every step of the flight, there's ambience that makes it more of an "adventure" from start to end, and makes one feel more like a real part of the flight then just a actor monitoring instruments until hand flying the descent.

 

It's almost like a flightplan within a flightplan as well as you try to keep in mind the particular steps that happen on the ground before and after you're actually in the air. WIth GSX Ground Environment you have a Marshall guiding you into the gate position, and hilariously enough, some of the most anxious ridden moments of the "flight" are waiting for the crossed sticks at the end of the taxi and hoping the marshall doesn't inform you that that wasn't a very good parking job LoL!

 

As the plane is deboarding, I also get a kick out of the little kid that says suddenly "bye bye!!!"

 

One thing that FS2Crew definitely has to fix though is an awareness of day and night flights. Listening to the flight attendant making an announcement that the inflight entertainment is about to start and it would help for people to close their window shades for better viewing by all, in the middle of a redeye flight, just kind of kills it LoL!

 

 

 

 

I love FS2Crew, but yes, they do need to fix their FA dialogues! Why would make a movie announcement when everybody has AVOD systems? Silly FS2Crew

 

An actual walk-around incorporated into PMDG or another add-on would be very engaging!  They could incorporate service based failures generated in PMDG for things like "Hey!  Why is there a puddle of hydraulic fluid under the left undercarriage?!" or "Why are the right flaps partially deployed when the left flaps are stowed?" or "Does the APU normally make that much smoke while it's running?  Is it overheating?"

 

 

don't know if small planes are your cup of tea but what you describe here is almost exactly how it works with the a2a 172 .... you have a multi-step walkaround to check the oil, spark plugs, etc and you can actually see if they aren't in optimal condition for flight, ignoring them will result in related failures, it's very immersive.

 

cheers

-andy crosby

I will share a real world experience I had the other day.

 

I was at work and had cleared an MD88 for takeoff, just as the aircraft began its takeoff roll the phone rang, it was the operations center who called frantically to tell us to stop the plane because an access panel was accidentally left open by the ground crew during pushback. Of course I knew better than to stop the aircraft for something like that so when it was airborne I advised the pilots and their reply, was basically it's nothing to worry about, based on its design it should remain closed by aerodynamic forces.

Sometimes though, a simple access door being left open can have disastrous consequences. A chartered Lockheed Electra crashed shortly after takeoff in Reno in the 1980s due to the access door for the air start pneumatic hose being left open, and the crew's incorrect response to the resulting severe vibrations. There was only one survivor.

 

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR86-01.pdf