Any issues with running at unlimited FPS?

[ZKOKQ 984]

Hmmm, I am not having any issues with FSDT KLAX in DX10.

I am surprised too, that Rick is having issues with KLAX and PHNL, both perform extremely well in DX10sfx

[SteveW 1,792]

"issues with running at unlimited FPS", I thought of another; the fans on my GPU card make more fuss in unlimited. :smile:

[s0cks 116]

I have to say I'm pretty surprised at people's findings. I know we all love to say "every setup is different" but there has to be some expected behaviour to technology.

 

Higher FPS feels more responsive, especially using TrackIR, and I can understand how unlimited will help improve framerates. However, as SteveW rightly pointed out, this will cause frame time to be all over the place which results in a perceived stuttering.

 

So on the one hand unlimited offers better frame rates and thus smoother response. But while limited means lower FPS it also increases fluidity, which is very important for flight.

 

A good test, if you can be bothered, is to fly around a rural area, in a good VFR plane, in clear weather (a location your PC has no problem handling) with unlimited set. Turn off the FPS counter and just judge the sensation of flight using your eyes only - no instrument watching either, fly true VFR. Do the same again, but this time with it limited to 30fps. You should find the flight with limited frames to be much more fluid and flight like.

 

Caveat is that TrackIR won't be as good as it's only updating your head position 30 times a second rather than up to 60.

 

I think perhaps some people, especially those who fly commercial airliners have their head buried in gauges so that a fluctuating FPS isn't a major concern as you're not really looking out the window that much anyway. What these pilots need is every frame they can get as they fly their complex airliner into detailed and busy airports. In these situations where the framerate cannot be sustained in limited mode, unlimited is better. But this type of "flying" in my opinion, is just a numbers game - there doesn't need to be that same sensation of flight that one would get from flying a P51D out of a rural airstrip and then doing barrel rolls and loops.

[FLEX1978 373]

Once again it is all down to each individuals setup.  We could go on about it for years!

 

@S0cks - Nothing to do with burying my head in the guages -  I like many others have methodically tested unlimited v fixed in various scenarios.  

 

FSX DX10 - I get smoother performance unlimited, FPS hovers around 60.  DX9 FPS locked at 30 is smooth.  

 

I could probably build an identical rig and have the complete opposite result.

 

So, use what works for 'you' no point telling other people what the correct method is...

 

,

[MDF86 123]

I have to say I'm pretty surprised at people's findings. I know we all love to say "every setup is different" but there has to be some expected behaviour to technology.

 

Higher FPS feels more responsive, especially using TrackIR, and I can understand how unlimited will help improve framerates. However, as SteveW rightly pointed out, this will cause frame time to be all over the place which results in a perceived stuttering.

 

So on the one hand unlimited offers better frame rates and thus smoother response. But while limited means lower FPS it also increases fluidity, which is very important for flight.

 

A good test, if you can be bothered, is to fly around a rural area, in a good VFR plane, in clear weather (a location your PC has no problem handling) with unlimited set. Turn off the FPS counter and just judge the sensation of flight using your eyes only - no instrument watching either, fly true VFR. Do the same again, but this time with it limited to 30fps. You should find the flight with limited frames to be much more fluid and flight like.

 

Caveat is that TrackIR won't be as good as it's only updating your head position 30 times a second rather than up to 60.

 

I think perhaps some people, especially those who fly commercial airliners have their head buried in gauges so that a fluctuating FPS isn't a major concern as you're not really looking out the window that much anyway. What these pilots need is every frame they can get as they fly their complex airliner into detailed and busy airports. In these situations where the framerate cannot be sustained in limited mode, unlimited is better. But this type of "flying" in my opinion, is just a numbers game - there doesn't need to be that same sensation of flight that one would get from flying a P51D out of a rural airstrip and then doing barrel rolls and loops.

I appreciate what your saying socks, however I fly only complex airliners only into busy payware airports. What matters for me is that I can smoothly fly into these airports without my sim looking like a slideshow when I'm on short final.

 

With my frames set to 30 I get much less smoothness than if I run unlimited.

 

So although I may get a smoother sensation whilst panning around in spot view in a light aircraft in the middle of nowhere if I limit to 30, it's of no benefit to me if the trade off is when I'm flying a 777 into Heathrow with clouds and lots of AI I'm looking at a slideshow, seeing as 99.9% of my sim time is in airliners going into busy high quality add on airports.

[s0cks 116]

I appreciate what your saying socks, however I fly only complex airliners only into busy payware airports. What matters for me is that I can smoothly fly into these airports without my sim looking like a slideshow when I'm on short final.

 

With my frames set to 30 I get much less smoothness than if I run unlimited.

 

So although I may get a smoother sensation whilst panning around in spot view in a light aircraft in the middle of nowhere if I limit to 30, it's of no benefit to me if the trade off is when I'm flying a 777 into Heathrow with clouds and lots of AI I'm looking at a slideshow, seeing as 99.9% of my sim time is in airliners going into busy high quality add on airports.

 

So you pretty much agreed with my last paragraph!

 

That was my point though. People are comparing two different scenarios. Of course reducing the load on the PC by not pre-rendering frames gives you a much needed boost in busy airports - so it's no wonder that people find unlimited to be "smoother". My point is that the technology works the same for everyone, it's not random. The difference in opinions is the difference in usage. If your PC could handle the 777 into Heathrow >40fps you would find limited to 30 much smoother.

 

Those of us who enjoy VFR flight, we really require that super smooth experience for the sensation of flight. Unlimited introduces far too much frame time variance and you end up with perceived stutters, even if your framerate is >40fps.

 

The other night, after a good smoke of the green stuff, I took the P51D out of a rural airport in NZ (using Orbx scenery) and nearly fell out of my chair when performing a roll. It felt so awesomely real! I then set unlimited frames and I completely lost that sense of flight. It was the icing on the cake for me - I have to have it on. But as said, each of us has our own preferences.

[martin-w 3,235]

The difference in opinions is the difference in usage. If your PC could handle the 777 into Heathrow >40fps you would find limited to 30 much smoother.

Not true for me. Unlimited is better. Unlimited no stutters, smooth, limited is smooth, no stutters... but limited provides higher frame rate.

[FLEX1978 373]

Not true for me. Unlimited is better. Unlimited no stutters, smooth, limited is smooth, no stutters... but limited provides higher frame rate.

 

Haha, same for me here. I think s0cks is smoking a little too much of the green stuff    Also his CPU is stock so I cant quite understand why he's telling us how things run on our systems. 

[Jetblst 23]

Well after reading here and skimming some, I would like to chuck this thought into the mix.

 

First, we all have different rigs so there is never going to be the magic bullet.

 

Second, and to paraphrase an individual who is well versed in DX10.  "You need to settle into a test flight with a test aircraft."

 

This is a really great thread with all kinds of great tips coming out of it for settings and not tweaks.  

 

How about somebody setting up a STOCK airport, airplane, with stock FSX Weather that we can all use and test, THEN we can share issues that would make more sense to those participating.  I think that would give us a good benchmark to start from to better fine tune DX10 FSX.

 

I'd just do it but I am going to be busy with work, and can't get on a lot right now.  Just a thought.  

[martin-w 3,235]

Chaps... I made a typo.

My post above should have read...

 

Not true for me. Unlimited is better. Unlimited no stutters, smooth, limited is smooth, no stutters... but UNlimited provides higher frame rate.

 
 
Silly me.

 

Also his CPU is stock so I cant quite understand why he's telling us how things run on our systems.

 

 

 

Yep, the variable here could well be the overclock. Could be that those of us with high overclocks can benefit from unlimited with no stutters, and that those with lesser, or no overclocks can't.

[Capt Speirs 52]

I have to say I'm pretty surprised at people's findings. I know we all love to say "every setup is different" but there has to be some expected behaviour to technology.

 

Higher FPS feels more responsive, especially using TrackIR, and I can understand how unlimited will help improve framerates. However, as SteveW rightly pointed out, this will cause frame time to be all over the place which results in a perceived stuttering.

 

So on the one hand unlimited offers better frame rates and thus smoother response. But while limited means lower FPS it also increases fluidity, which is very important for flight.

 

A good test, if you can be bothered, is to fly around a rural area, in a good VFR plane, in clear weather (a location your PC has no problem handling) with unlimited set. Turn off the FPS counter and just judge the sensation of flight using your eyes only - no instrument watching either, fly true VFR. Do the same again, but this time with it limited to 30fps. You should find the flight with limited frames to be much more fluid and flight like.

 

Caveat is that TrackIR won't be as good as it's only updating your head position 30 times a second rather than up to 60.

 

I think perhaps some people, especially those who fly commercial airliners have their head buried in gauges so that a fluctuating FPS isn't a major concern as you're not really looking out the window that much anyway. What these pilots need is every frame they can get as they fly their complex airliner into detailed and busy airports. In these situations where the framerate cannot be sustained in limited mode, unlimited is better. But this type of "flying" in my opinion, is just a numbers game - there doesn't need to be that same sensation of flight that one would get from flying a P51D out of a rural airstrip and then doing barrel rolls and loops.

 

I agree with you that Tubeliners vs low flying GA has quite different requirements in visual effects. That is probably why you see so much diversity in actual results, kinda like "Apples and Oranges". If everyone included all there Hardware and Software being used, we might be surprised at what we find. I'm a "Tube Pilot", could really careless about frame rates (now, didn't for quite some time), need smoothness, others it is the other way around. At some point one has to say "enough is enough, let's fly". Do you want pretty or practical? Apparently we are not afforded both with FSX, close, but no banana.

[Christopher Low 5,353]

 

I agree with you that Tubeliners vs low flying GA has quite different requirements in visual effects.

 

I'll throw another spanner into the works........I like to fly the 737NGX "low and slow" like a GA plane. A real test of PC power and reliability.

 

Oh, and for the nth time.....the term is "couldn't care less".

[s0cks 116]

Haha, same for me here. I think s0cks is smoking a little too much of the green stuff    Also his CPU is stock so I cant quite understand why he's telling us how things run on our systems. 

 

Haha, maybe I have

 

Before this I did have an i5 system overclocked to 4.2GHz, and other than being faster (and hotter), both performed as I would have expected. More frames when unlimited, smoother when limited. It's rather irrelevant though as different clock speeds won't cause a CPU to act differently. I don't think any processor here can handle FSX @ 60fps in all scenarios, so regardless, we are all hitting a CPU wall at some point or another. 

 

I've worked as an IT technician for over 10 years now, and so far I can say most people talk crap. I don't mean to be disrespectful here, it's just that I don't think many people understand or validate their results correctly (and not just in flight sim). Every tweak or settings has logic behind it, it is not random. We may not know what the tweak does, or how our systems are configured in a way that effects that tweak, but every time one of us uses it, it will be making the same change as anyone else who uses it.

 

This one is simple though, as it's fairly easy to understand. If your frame-rate is up & down you will get frame time variance. This will cause stutters. End of story. If you can keep your framerate steady with unlimited, great! It will be smooth. So far I've seen nothing that contradicts this.

 

 

Not true for me. Unlimited is better. Unlimited no stutters, smooth, limited is smooth, no stutters... but limited provides higher frame rate.

 

If you can maintain a smooth framerate then unlimited will be smooth. If your framerate fluctuates a lot then it will be smoother limited. Frame time is the key figure here - one not reported by FSX.

[Michael Moe 495]

Is the "V-Sync" job  the same when using locked vs unlimited ?

 

I am also running DX10 with unlimited because of better smooth performance.

 

I am using windowedmode hence the Force etc... in the cfg. No need for half refresh in the NI which is only for Fullscreen.

 

Michael

[martin-w 3,235]

If you can maintain a smooth framerate then unlimited will be smooth. If your framerate fluctuates a lot then it will be smoother limited. Frame time is the key figure here - one not reported by FSX.

I don't disagree with you, and that's precisely the point.

 

Despite conventional wisdom telling us that unlimited creates a great deal of frame rate fluctuation, and thus stutters... it actually doesn't on my system and others, at unlimited.

 

I often find myself in a less demanding aircraft at upward of 90 frames per second, and yes there is some frame rate fluctuation, but it's a lot less than it would have been in the past. I can only conclude that more powerful hardware, sensible slider settings and the avoidance of hyper detailed add-on scenery is the causal factor.