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michael179

All ILS/LOC are Misaligned

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Hi all,

 

A few months ago I got into Prepar3D and this issue has been more and more predominant lately.

When flying the Majestic Q400, the Airbus Extended 320/321, or really any other aircraft, there are lots of problems when landing an ILS.

 

For example, yesterday on final with the Q400, established on the ILS 06L at CYYZ (Toronto Pearson), I actually ended up landing on the green grade between 06L and taxiway C. This is a big difference since I didn't actually land on the runway and can cause damage to the plane.

 

Another example, the Q400 on the ILS 08 at CYTZ (City Centre at TORONTO), the glide slope and LOC are messed up. I landed to the right of that runway and almost in the water, before the runway, thus proving the g/s wasn't working properly.

 

I've tested to make sure it's not the winds by setting the winds to calm or 000/00.

 

The Airbus 320/321 does a better job of landing properly, but still is sometimes off course.

 

Both the A320/321 and the Q400 have the latest Navigraph cycle installed, or second latest. 1405 or 1406.

 

Please let me know how I can fix this, if there's an easy fix or if it's something I need to change for each airport's runways. And while I haven't tested every airport, it happens at almost every airport that I fly to, especially in the Q400.

 

Thanks!

Mike

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Hi Mike,

 

I could be wrong, but AFAIK the Q400 isn't rated and not capable of CAT III and/or auto land. You always have to take manual control of the plane and if you cant see the runway at minimums to land properly, you have to go around or even divert.

 

Airbus on the other hand should be capable of this, but again AFAIK only if the airport has the right equipment with the required accuracy. Not sure if we can rely on this being actually simulated on purpose, but inaccuracies in the default scenery basically cause the same thing. Commercial addons should do better in that respect.

 

Regards 

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Hi Mike,

 

The example airport you provided ( CYTZ ) is working as intended, i would suggest you check the charts for the ILS08 approach and you will see it has a 3 degree offset on the localizer so you would need to do a Non Precision Approach or NPA which the Aerosoft Airbus can do.

 

Check your charts before you take off so you know the type of approach you will need to make on landing :)

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I have same problem with the IFly 737 at Toronto only when Landing at RWY 23.

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I have same problem with the IFly 737 at Toronto only when Landing at RWY 23.

 

The charts for runway 23 match whats in the sim so it could be an issue with the nav data

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FSX and P3D do not model autoland. Also you need two things, an a/c capable of autoland and the equipment at the airport. There MAY be a specific ILS that's not correct but the overwhelming majority are just fine. If you are having that issue at various airports, I suggest checking the learning center to better understand ILS approaches.

 

Also remember that the data in FSX and P3D is several years old, so if you are using current charts you MAY have a difference.

 

I think though that the OP is trying to autoland where it can't be done.

 

Vic

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"For example, yesterday on final with the Q400, established on the ILS 06L at CYYZ (Toronto Pearson), I actually ended up landing on the green grade between 06L and taxiway C"

The error is the same in FSX and P3D (without custom scenery) .. very little ... and should present no problem for the approach and landing.

You should Go Around if you do not have a good landing situation.

I took a screenshot of the ILS error.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jliufj8pmzhurnr/ils6L-CYYZ.JPG

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Ok thanks for the replies. I guess I will just fly manually then when about 300ft AGL for the Q400.

 

Mike

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Mike,

 

"I guess I will just fly manually then when about 300ft AGL for the Q400."

 

 

Were you attempting an autoland in th Q400?

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Mike,

 

"I guess I will just fly manually then when about 300ft AGL for the Q400."

 

 

Were you attempting an autoland in th Q400?

No I wan't attempting to autoland, I would flare the plane and bring it down the last 100ft or so. But I was expecting a proper glide path and LOC course at least.

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Hi Mike,

 

The example airport you provided ( CYTZ ) is working as intended, i would suggest you check the charts for the ILS08 approach and you will see it has a 3 degree offset on the localizer so you would need to do a Non Precision Approach or NPA which the Aerosoft Airbus can do.

 

Check your charts before you take off so you know the type of approach you will need to make on landing :)

 

ILS 08 is an ILS and is a precision approach. An ILS can be aligned by up to 5o degrees.

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ILS 08 is an ILS and is a precision approach. An ILS can be aligned by up to 5o degrees.

 

Ok, I guess since it wasn't a CAT III ILS approach the ILS wasn't that precise. I will try the ILS 06L at CYYZ again in the A320 to see if I land on the grass again or on the runway. 

 

Mike

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Ok, I guess since it wasn't a CAT III ILS approach the ILS wasn't that precise. I will try the ILS 06L at CYYZ again in the A320 to see if I land on the grass again or on the runway. 

 

Mike

 

An ILS is a precision approach regardless of Category.

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ILS 08 is an ILS and is a precision approach. An ILS can be aligned by up to 5o degrees.

 

 

yeah my bad, The approach at CYTZ on runway 08 could be classed as a LDA Approach with glide slope so you would be expected to perform a sidestep on to the runway or perform a manual landing based on visual rules. I do believe the Aerosoft Airbus A320 can do this type of landing providing you have the aircraft/auto pilot correctly configured and it will place you on the center line.

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Ok, I guess since it wasn't a CAT III ILS approach the ILS wasn't that precise. I will try the ILS 06L at CYYZ again in the A320 to see if I land on the grass again or on the runway. 

 

Mike

 

I checked the stock CYYZ in ADE and the ILS for 06L is miss-aligned so you will need to fix that but CYTZ is working as intended with a 3 degree offset.

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I checked the stock CYYZ in ADE and the ILS for 06L is miss-aligned so you will need to fix that but CYTZ is working as intended with a 3 degree offset.

 

I see, it didn't make sense to land that far off the runway. How can I fix this? I've never used 'ADE' before.

Is it the Airport Design Editor?

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Ok thanks for the replies. I guess I will just fly manually then when about 300ft AGL for the Q400.

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike,

 

I strongly suggest taking a look at Airline2Sim's cadet trainig for the Q400. Lots to be learned there.

 

You get the actual decision height / MDA from the plates for the airport, these are not the same everywhere. At this altitude you are required to 1: see the RWY and 2: to disconnect the AP when not otherwise equipped and rated (that means: Pilot, Aircraft and Airport!). Flying a plane down to the RWY on the ILS + AP is IMHO the exception anyway. Most pilots disconnect the AP in favourable conditions on landing even if everything pertains for an autoland. AFAIK that's because flying under AP does not count as full flying hours for the pilot.

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I see, it didn't make sense to land that far off the runway. How can I fix this? I've never used 'ADE' before.

Is it the Airport Design Editor?

 

Yes ADE is Airport Design Editor but you will need to install the P3D SDK as well.

 

There is two things wrong with the 06L ILS, the first is the heading, it should match the runway heading and the second is the position as its off center. I have very limited experience with ADE.

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Yes ADE is Airport Design Editor but you will need to install the P3D SDK as well.

 

There is two things wrong with the 06L ILS, the first is the heading, it should match the runway heading and the second is the position as its off center. I have very limited experience with ADE.

Paul,

 

I see no problem with CYYZ 06L ILS magnetic heading of 57 degrees.

 

What do you have for the runway heading?

 

Edit:

Also, how is it "position as its off center"?

Do you possibly have a screenshot showing this?

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Hi Mike,

 

on another note, check out Wikipedia on "Instrument landing system". CAT's, MDA and everything else is explained there.

 

(Didn't know that even if pilot, aircraft and airport are, the airline itself may have to be rated too, to be allowed CAT III a/b)

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Paul,

 

I see no problem with CYYZ 06L ILS magnetic heading of 57 degrees.

 

What do you have for the runway heading?

 

Edit:

Also, how is it "position as its off center"?

Do you possibly have a screenshot showing this?

 

This is an AFCAD issue not that noticeable in the sim but it still can cause an issue as the glide slope will be slightly out with the center line, i think its half a degree or something like that, the number is small.

 

Here is a screen grab of the 06 ILS not being lined up correctly, If you notice in the runway info it has a heading 46.4900.

 

DBtvz.jpg

 

Here is a screen grab from the 06L ILS properties and as you can see its heading differs from the runway and as that airport, well runway 06L  ( based on the charts ) does not use an offset ILS approach or a LDA approach both should match.

FfyL.jpg

 

While the runway is the one that is out by half a degree i feel it would be better to line up the ILS to the runway as moving the runway by half a degree could mean you have to re align the taxi ways and as i have very limited skill with ADE that would be a bigger project than what my skill would allow.

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Please don't go changing navaids in the AFCAD as these are set based on the airport. There are two problems that bug FSX which I don't know if LM changed in P3D. The first is a corrupt registry entry which causes the aircraft to fly the glidescope but be off centre from the runway, there is a tool for FSX that fixes this, also built into FS2Crew although I don't know about P3D. The other problem is with the fact that the navdata if FSX is out of date and again, I don't know if LM updated these in P3D. You have updated the navdata of the aircraft but not of the virtual flightsim world. Some aircraft override the aircraft navdata and read the FSX/P3D data, some don't including the Q400. There is a tool to do update this at www.aero.sors.fr .

 

If you don't believe on this then you can test this theory as I did. Install Airport Design Studio and load the airport afcad BGL. Then find the airport on Google maps and to a screen save. Load the screen save into ADS and overlay this on the runway, if it matches then the airport is aligned. The theory is simple, they do not move runways by a few degrees each year but the magnetic variation changes as the earth spins on it's axis. Runway numbers change because the world does not spin exact, not because the move the runways.

 

Hope this helps  

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This is an AFCAD issue not that noticeable in the sim but it still can cause an issue as the glide slope will be slightly out with the center line, i think its half a degree or something like that, the number is small.

 

Here is a screen grab of the 06 ILS not being lined up correctly, If you notice in the runway info it has a heading 46.4900.

 

DBtvz.jpg

 

Here is a screen grab from the 06L ILS properties and as you can see its heading differs from the runway and as that airport, well runway 06L  ( based on the charts ) does not use an offset ILS approach or a LDA approach both should match.

FfyL.jpg

 

While the runway is the one that is out by half a degree i feel it would be better to line up the ILS to the runway as moving the runway by half a degree could mean you have to re align the taxi ways and as i have very limited skill with ADE that would be a bigger project than what my skill would allow.

 

The heading you are talking (46.49 in the screenshot) about is TRUE heading and it is correct.

The MAGnetic heading used on the ILS plates and the aircraft's ILS approach (LOC) 57 degrees and it is correct... (you have to apply the magnetic variation shown in your screenshot to get MAgnetic heading that pilots use on the approach).

 

If an approach has an OFFset localizer it will be noted on the approach plate (like CYTZ .. Uper left corner in small print).

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It would be nice for LM to fix some of the broken parts at some airports but i dont think they have that in the list of their plans as they just provide a base simulator for us to work from and its up to us to fix afcad's ( or update them if we wish ).

 

@ Vonmar,

 

my ADE displays the runway heading and ils both in TRUE which is not really an issue as i dont have plans to fix that airport as im mainly flying in the EU, When the runway heading is set correctly to TRUE it does cause issues with the taxi ways that join the runway. Is there a way to change it to magnetic ?

 

@ Craig,

 

While what you say is true we should not mess with the nav aids in the sim unless we really know what we are doing, centering up the ILS by moving it a little should not cause any harm to any of the AIRAC databases out there as we would only move the ILS in ADE to correctly line up with the center line so a full and correct ILS approach can be made the way it should be for that airport.

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I fixed the localizers at CYYZ, about 3 of them were off. Maybe even 4. I exported it using the LM SDK for P3D but now how can I use this scenery for CYYz a instead of the default? Do I just put it in the scenery folder?

Thanks! Mike

 

I noticed that at CYTZ the localizer for 33 was completely misaligned! It didn't even line up with any runways, not even close! But I left it since I don't use that airport often. LM should really work on these little bugs so we can all have a seamless flying experience.

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