Thanks for the heads up on their treatment of customers. Will never buy anything from Blackbox Simulation

You all seem to be very impatient. Firstly, from what I hear they are a very small team, so any updates will take a while. Also, as soon as anyone creates a thread asking for an update on the PMDG 747 V2 or DC-6, they are immediately ( and rightly, IMO) told that PMDG will give an update when they have one to give and that asking for one is pointless. No company should be expected to make week-by-week or day by day updates of exactly where they are with the product. Granted, PMDG does not release betas like BBS, but I think that the comparison still holds. If they act annoyed when they are constantly pestered for updates or are told that nobody wants the new airplane that they are creating, they have a right to be. 

You all seem to be very impatient. Firstly, from what I hear they are a very small team, so any updates will take a while. Also, as soon as anyone creates a thread asking for an update on the PMDG 747 V2 or DC-6, they are immediately ( and rightly, IMO) told that PMDG will give an update when they have one to give and that asking for one is pointless. No company should be expected to make week-by-week or day by day updates of exactly where they are with the product. Granted, PMDG does not release betas like BBS, but I think that the comparison still holds. If they act annoyed when they are constantly pestered for updates or are told that nobody wants the new airplane that they are creating, they have a right to be. 

Nobody paid for the PMDG747 v2 or the DC6 yet. They aren't customers yet. This is customers who have paid HUGE difference. If they are annoyed by constant demands for updates they can do 2 things. Give updates and or Don't sell a unfinished product.

This is customers who have paid . If they are annoyed by constant demands for updates they can do 2 things. Give updates and or Don't sell a unfinished product.

Customers who have paid knowing that they would be getting an unfinished product that would be finished in the future. And it's not like they're not giving any updates at all. I am a member of their facebook page, and they do give updates every now and then. However, if they have no good updates to give, they can't give an update. Simple as that. They can't flood their page with updates such as "We finished painting this .bmp file today" (or whatever- I don't know much about designing FS planes) because those are not that meaningful. They are, like I said, a small team (2 people I think?) that can't work around the clock as I'm sure they have lives outside of FS. Although I agree it would be nice for them to be able to give regular updates and patches to their customers, this does not appear to be possible. Do you think that they like leaving their customers waiting? It is bad publicity and no company wants that, so it makes sense that they get annoyed when pestered as I'm sure they are doing all that they can given their individual, personal circumstances. In addition, from what I hear the A330 is flyable. Not perfect, but still flyable. 

 

Also, how about service packs for the NGX and PMDG 777? Those customers paid for their product, but when people asked for an update on the SPs they are/were frequently shouted down, saying that they will be ready when they are ready. 

In addition, from what I hear the A330 is flyable. Not perfect, but still flyable. 

 

Yeah, it's flyable in similar way to a Cessna 172 with 747 flight dynamics. It flies like a rock. That's the main annoyance, I don't mind some bugs and not having some systems inoperational, however flying an aircraft with totally flawed FD & FBW isn't enjoayble at all, currently it requires full left / right aileron input to get the thing turn fast enough.  

 

Yet this is what their product page claims:

 

"The Airbus A330 Flight model has been reproduced and tested by independant Current Airbus Pilots and includes our Custom Fly By Wire system and Envelope protection Laws."

 

I would use Wilco but its FD is flawed too, though FBW works okay. 

 

 

Also, how about service packs for the NGX and PMDG 777? Those customers paid for their product, but when people asked for an update on the SPs they are/were frequently shouted down, saying that they will be ready when they are ready. 

First of all PMDG does give updates on service packs.Most of those updates try to give a timeline People don't like what they hear in those and complain. PMDG also has a reputation that BBS couldn't even dream to attain. Why you may ask? PMDG has a support forum and support tickets, BBS has a facebook page. It's my understanding from the OP that they are showing updates for another aircraft too. If they are as small as some have said then why aren't they trying to finish one product before starting another? Answer is simple. People will pay for that unfinished product too. People actually purchased a product that claimed to convert FSX to 64bit and then posted how well it worked. Its fake but they believed it. I guess BBS knows they can make money selling unfinished products. People in this hobby aren't exempt from the "I want it now" mentality that seems to be rampant now. Developers are now taking advantage of that and getting paid as they develop. We as simmers allow it to happen. It is a shame.

#Richie Walsh

 

++++1 good riposte allied to sound points.

Yeah, it's flyable in similar way to a Cessna 172 with 747 flight dynamics. It flies like a rock. That's the main annoyance, I don't mind some bugs and not having some systems inoperational, however flying an aircraft with totally flawed FD & FBW isn't enjoayble at all, currently it requires full left / right aileron input to get the thing turn fast enough.  

This is unfortunate. I seemed to recall from a thread when it was first released that it had its problems but it was, for all intents and purposes, flyable to some degree. Thanks for informing me that this is not the case.

 

First of all PMDG does give updates on service packs.Most of those updates try to give a timeline People don't like what they hear in those and complain. PMDG also has a reputation that BBS couldn't even dream to attain. Why you may ask? PMDG has a support forum and support tickets, BBS has a facebook page. It's my understanding from the OP that they are showing updates for another aircraft too. If they are as small as some have said then why aren't they trying to finish one product before starting another? Answer is simple. People will pay for that unfinished product too. People actually purchased a product that claimed to convert FSX to 64bit and then posted how well it worked. Its fake but they believed it. I guess BBS knows they can make money selling unfinished products. People in this hobby aren't exempt from the "I want it now" mentality that seems to be rampant now. Developers are now taking advantage of that and getting paid as they develop. We as simmers allow it to happen. It is a shame.

Make no mistake, I understand that BBS and PMDG are in entirely different leagues. But PMDG is also known for giving very, very loose timelines and updates that, while comprehensive, are not exactly regular (one every few months it seems). If someone posts "I'm sick of PMDG not giving us regular updates on SP2 of the 777 [for example] and they are very rude because whenever I ask them for an update they won't give one to me", they will be met by backlash on the forum, and rightly so. BBS 1)Has limited resources 2)Sells the product explicitly stating that it is not finished yet, 3)DOES give major, important updates when they have them, and 4)Has been a reputation for continuing the development of their products, unlike CS who I have heard sometimes do not. It is impossible to know what is going on with the BBS dev team that is preventing them from going at a faster rate. However, I assume that they are reasonably intelligent and can understand that a finished product=more sales=more money for them. They have an incentive to finish the product, so it is safe to assume that they will finish it when they can. As for why they are working on the A340 instead of devoting all their time to the A330, I do not know. perhaps they have had overwhelming requests for an A340, or perhaps development of the A340 (which is mostly a modeling and not systems update) does not interfere with their work on the A330 systems. 

Hamoody

 

you make some valid points in their defense, but there is no defending some of their responses they have made on FB...  Then you say that they put updates out when they are major and meaningful... sooooo finishing the bogie on the A340 and sending out pictures of the landing gear on the A340 is major and meaningful???? Because if that's the case, then people will be waiting for a lot longer then they think...  I didn't know it was a two man team, which has now got major red flags floating all over... lets also not forget that they are also doing the A320 family of aircraft at the same time... They have taken on way to much, and its very clear... so lets say they release the A330/340 V.08 in the next few months, then they have to go to work on V1.0 for the A320 series... this could be many years before anyone sees a finished product...

They don't "have" to do anything, they've taken our money and we are the fools for it, but IMHO if you choose to release a BETA product then regular updates should be something the customer (who has already paid) deserves...  I don't have FB and I don't post on their page, but I do read it, and the way they respond to some people is just plain terrible, and no they don't have the right to be mad when people ask for updates THEY HAVE PAID ALREADY... the customer has every right to ask questions and receive professional answers. 

PMDGs (while not regular, but neither are BBS) updates were always professional, but again no one paid for the PMDG product before it came out...

@ACAJS41

 

You more or less spelt it out for me. That was more or less a similar analogy I was going to use.

 

All credit if these 2 guys decide to front up a development company, but surely it's like the small fish in the big tank scenario, swimming against the big fish who have oodles of resources, and thus these 2 take a spanking each time from their existent and potential customers, akin to a one-man-five-car hire outfit going up against Hertz.

 

 

no one paid for the PMDG product before it came out...

 

Plenty paid for the 777 and many still seem to have issues, especially the "time compression" feature which was broken since the SP came out - not defending BBS, but PMDG are no saints either when it comes to keeping people appraised of how things are going and responses to people (usually via their fan base or one or two beta testers) who request updates for fixing broken items. It seems to me that PMDG get cut a lot more slack than other development houses due to their cult following.

They get cut more slack because the people on their forum are only a fraction of their customers. The majority don't have problems. They are working towards a solution. The mistake people make is complaining in the forum when they should submit a support ticket. Again, we are talking apples and oranges. The person who spoke of PMDG mentioned the 747v2 adn DC6. Nobody has paid for those. As for the SP's again its not a large number of people. For the ones who have problems it must suck. So to recap. Forum and support ticket system with a clear track record on their products vs Facebook and unfinished products with a background/history that will keep me away from them until I hear from reputable people saying the product is good. How anyone can defend a unfinished product while they continue to develop new products is mind boggling. It's like paying a mechanic in advance for car to be repaired. He gives it back to you unfinished and starts working on your neighbors and advertises his work on your neighbors while ignoring you.

 

 

 

The time compression is a feature but doesn't make it so it isn't flyable.

 

 

How anyone can defend a unfinished product while they continue to develop new products is mind boggling

 

I said I wasn't defending anybody

 

 

 

The time compression is a feature but doesn't make it so it isn't flyable

 

I didn't say it made it unflyable. However it is a feature that did work (incredibly well, I might add) and now ... doesn't.

 

 

 

The majority don't have problems

 

I am one of those, although said time compression now doesn't work.

 

 

 

They are working towards a solution

 

I'm sure they are.

I purchased the BBS A320 two years ago and have since given up on them. I then noticed that later on they released the A330 which at the time I thought 'NO WAY', I'm not going to go down that road again and was disappointed they decided to start working on another product before finishing the first one.

 

I've been installing the updates they released over time for the A320 just to see how it's shaping up and been disappointed every single time prompting to uninstall it again. Taking it for a quick flight I always got this feeling of still flying an incomplete half-baked product that I paid $60 AUD for - the price you would pay for a complete v1.0 product. Last version I installed was 0.80 to see the updated and revamped VC textures and actually found it looked worse in some ways.

 

I understand that by purchasing their products you are essentially agreeing that it is an incomplete product still I beta with 'great things to come'...some day, but I think that's a sneaky way of them covering themselves from any trouble by saying 'well you knew this from the start and agreed by purchasing it'. On the other hand it seems they do provide refunds under certain circumstances.