PMDG 777 Immersion

[gfd 15]

With respect that seems an over-reaction. Removing Immersion to be within the EULA I can understand, but why uninstall your PMDG products?

 

I think Rob is voting with his uninstaller. That's a stand. It's OK. I don't believe he suggested others do the same. He paid  software developers for their product. He's not satisfied with the current situation viz a vie OldProp's incursion into PMDG's restrictive EULA. He has advised the developers that he won't be using their product until they straighten it out. Now, what's wrong with that?

 

What I want to know is why I'm finding this out a forum, several months after the product is released. Is this something OldProp and PMDG just tripped over recently? I think not.

[IFR7700 228]

This is in my top five purchased addons ever

 

Okay, Rich ... I'm curious.  What are the other 4?

[Richard Sennett 2,499]

Okay, Rich ... I'm curious.  What are the other 4?

lol Good one Dennis - first of all hope is all well my friend - here we go heres 5  -----  PMDG T777 - REX - T77 Immersion and Precipitfx - Aerosoft Airbus - UTX V2 ---- NGX would be on list if it had T777 lighting system (would be there but not quite) - I will say NGX with Shockwave lights is awesome in P3D - there are others but this is my top picks 

 

By the way if anyone wants my shockwave light setup for P3D for ngx just ask - which begs the question why would shockwave be any different than Immersion 

[Guest]

With respect that seems an over-reaction.

 

I'd agree if it were just a case of PrecipitFX 777 Immersion product, but it's not just one product I own/use that violates PMDG's EULA, it's several.  I'm glad Kyle brought it to my/our attention as it isn't something I even considered could be or would be an issue.  I know PMDG are active about these particular issues so I'm not going put myself in that position.

 

I hope some additional clarification can be made, but I understand if it's not something PMDG want to address beyond what they have already specified in the EULA.

 

Am I happy about it, of course not, would I like to see some "attention" on this matter, of course I would, hence the post.

 

Cheers, Rob.

[IFR7700 228]

lol Good one Dennis - first of all hope is all well my friend - here we go heres 5  -----  PMDG T777 - REX - T77 Immersion and Precipitfx - Aerosoft Airbus - UTX V2 ---- NGX would be on list if it had T777 lighting system (would be there but not quite) - I will say NGX with Shockwave lights is awesome in P3D - there are others but this is my top picks 

 

By the way if anyone wants my shockwave light setup for P3D for ngx just ask - which begs the question why would shockwave be any different than Immersion 

 

Doing well, Rich ... thanks.  Good list.  I don't have any airbus stuff.  I was looking to get this T777 Immersion and Preciptfx, but now that PMDG is squawking about EULA's, I think I'll wait and see.  Good to "see" ya.

[77west 139]

Doesn't Active Sky Next modify the panel.cfg to enable x-gauge?

[Don t moderate me this way 882]

Doesn't Active Sky Next modify the panel.cfg to enable x-gauge?

 

 

If you use ASN's XGauge installer, then yes: An XGauge window will be added to the T7's panel.cfg.

 

But it's not required for the PMDG T7, because of the integrated weather radar.

People may want to install it into their J41s, MD11's, 744s and so forth, though.

 

There's a host of addons that modify the panel.cfg, just thinking of the dbs studio stuff (TAWS, TCAS, Airport GPS, Walk&Follow), feelThere's MAP!, one or two windows by VoxATC, FS Captain and a lot more.

 

AFAIK, only FS2Crew has been officially allowed to add their stuff to the PMDG files - only one out of a whole bunch of "4th party" developers ...   :huh:

[Flying Penguin 44]

AFAIK, only FS2Crew has been officially allowed to add their stuff to the PMDG files - only one out of a whole bunch of "4th party" developers ...   :huh:

 

Interestingly (well, to me anyway...), whilst sections 1.i and 1.q of the EULA impose general obligations not to modify the files except as described in the licence, the only use case for modification that applies to everyone (i.e. is not qualified as applying to add on developers) is the ability to create liveries in 1.l.  

 

The only references to add ons (sections 1.r-1.u) relate to code review, using PMDG assets, EULA display and commercial training.  At no point is there any reference to an end user actually using the addon, and 1.w specifically states that anything not explicitly stated is reserved to PMDG, so any implied permission is out.

 

tl;dr - FS2Crew may have permission to create the addon, but end users aren't allowed to install it, if you follow the EULA to the letter.

[carlito777 712]

While I understand that PMDG has to protect their intellectual property, I think that PMDG is extremely nit-picking when it comes to the way how customers are allowed to use their products. Their way of treating this is almost like a car manufacturer who wants to tell you that you are not allowed to drive the car you just purchased on an unpaved road nor are you allowed to modify anything on the car. If a car manufacturer would do that, then nobody would buy that car. PMDG's way to make an honest customer who modifies just the slightest thing of the product feel like a software pirate is nothing short of annoying. Don't get me wrong. The products are great but the customer treatment is not.

[kevinh 409]

i don't inderstand all this fuss over an add-on that you have to use external views to see working. People who make videos woukd gave a use for it, but I want to fly my 777 not watch it fly (or watch someone else fly theirs. Similarly with shock wave lights. What's wrong with the excellent lighting PMDG provided?

tl;dr - FS2Crew may have permission to create the addon, but end users aren't allowed to install it, if you follow the EULA to the letter.

I disagree. The EULA is written in general terms. If FS2Crew are licenced to modify PMDG's product then users don't need explicit permission to use it. Anything which uses the published SDK must be legal. Otherwise why publish an SDK?

[Don t moderate me this way 882]

(...) PMDG's way to make an honest customer who modifies just the slightest thing of the product feel like a software pirate is nothing short of annoying. Don't get me wrong. The products are great but the customer treatment is not.

 

 

In order to do some justice to PMDG (yes, they deserve justice, too! ):

 

I have never noticed PMDG nitpicking on a customer adding windows to the panel.cfg. Most 4th party windows are inserted in the 2D cockpit, which isn't even modelled in the T7 to begin with.

 

And Kyle gave a heads-up to their EULA in relation to the immersion addon, which has more consequences for the PMDG code than just a small addition of a 2D window.

 

Still I would like to see PMDG clarifying and/or differentiating their policy.

[kevinh 409]

I'd agree if it were just a case of PrecipitFX 777 Immersion product, but it's not just one product I own/use that violates PMDG's EULA, it's several. I'm glad Kyle brought it to my/our attention as it isn't something I even considered could be or would be an issue. I know PMDG are active about these particular issues so I'm not going put myself in that position.

 

I hope some additional clarification can be made, but I understand if it's not something PMDG want to address beyond what they have already specified in the EULA.

 

Am I happy about it, of course not, would I like to see some "attention" on this matter, of course I would, hence the post.

 

Cheers, Rob.

The only product explicitly mentioned as breaching the EULA is Immersion. People here are simply speculating about other products that might breach it. Until PMDG state they break the licence agreement it's safe to continue using them. PMDG would have to give you fair warning and a chance to comply before taking any action about it. PMDG will primarily take action against the developer concerned, not the user.

 

As for posting these concerns here to get their attention. Surely it would be better to raise a support ticket and get a definitive answer on whether the other products breach the EULA.

[Flying Penguin 44]

The only product explicitly mentioned as breaching the EULA is Immersion. People here are simply speculating about other products that might breach it. Until PMDG state they break the licence agreement it's safe to continue using them. 

 

That's not strictly true.  The EULA is right there, in black and white and quite explicitly worded.

 

PMDG may state what they do/don't care about in terms of what they might actually seek to enforce, but being in breach of the EULA or not is simply a matter of document interpretation*.

 

 

*Obviously that doesn't take into account whether the EULA has the intended impact or the enforceability of provisions, which is a whole can of (much more complicated) legal worms.

[kevinh 409]

That's not strictly true. The EULA is right there, in black and white and quite explicitly worded.

 

PMDG may state what they do/don't care about in terms of what they might actually seek to enforce, but being in breach of the EULA or not is simply a matter of document interpretation*.

 

 

*Obviously that doesn't take into account the enforceability of provisions, which is a whole can of (much more complicated) legal worms, but it's not really relevant to the discussion here.

With respect I think you are misreading it. That's easy to do. The point is FS2Crew uses the PMDG SDK. Thus it doesn't change any PMDG code.

[Flying Penguin 44]

I disagree. The EULA is written in general terms. If FS2Crew are licenced to modify PMDG's product then users don't need explicit permission to use it. Anything which uses the published SDK must be legal. Otherwise why publish an SDK?

 

Read the relevant EULA sections I reference, they are very explicit in precluding modifications.  

 

I assume you can produce a product that doesn't modify files but uses the SDK (I haven't read the SDK I admit), that would be an acceptable method.  FS2Crew uses the SDK and also modifies files, which is why it would be questionable.

With respect I think you are misreading it. That's easy to do. The point is FS2Crew uses the PMDG SDK. Thus it doesn't change any PMDG code.

 

It does, take a look in Panel.cfg.  You will see a number of modifications made by the FS2Crew installer.

 

 

 

 

Edit:  To be clear, I'm not overly worried by the EULA here, I'm not expecting a PMDG SWAT team to crash through my door and demand I uninstall VoxATC and FS2Crew on pain of death, but there does need to be recognition that the parts of the EULA that are legitimately intended to protect PMDG's IP and reduce support problems caused by unauthorised modification are structured in such a way as to preclude the use of more "garden variety" add-ons.  Now that may or may not be the intended outcome, but given the hard line PMDG takes on EULA violations, when something is explicitly stated in the EULA I take it that they mean it, rather than it being copy/paste boilerplate.