PMDG 777 Immersion

[Hirdy2013 104]

If we're going to follow the PMDG eula to the letter then perhaps we should be uninstalling P3D. After all the majority are using it for entertainment purposes aren't they?

[Flying Penguin 44]

If we're going to follow the PMDG eula to the letter then perhaps we should be uninstalling P3D. After all the majority are using it for entertainment purposes aren't they?

 

When Lockheed Martin start advocating strict EULA compliance with the same vigour as PMDG, you may have a point 

 

(as an aside, I fit both Academic and Pro P3D EULA categories, so I'm quite aright thankyouverymuch.... ;-) )

[Don t moderate me this way 882]

(...) then perhaps we should be uninstalling P3D. After all the majority are using it for entertainment purposes aren't they?

 

 

I use FSX in order to educate myself on aviation.

P3D EULA discussions solely exist for my entertainment.   :p0805:

 

As far as EULAs and support are concerned: I would understand if PMDG stated that any modifications are at the users' own risk, and that neither product functions could be guaranteed nor support could be provided for any of those mods.

But prohibiting even the slightest changes is a different thing to me.

[kevinh 409]

Read the relevant EULA sections I reference, they are very explicit in precluding modifications.

 

I assume you can produce a product that doesn't modify files but uses the SDK (I haven't read the SDK I admit), that would be an acceptable method. FS2Crew uses the SDK and also modifies files, which is why it would be questionable.

 

 

It does, take a look in Panel.cfg. You will see a number of modifications made by the FS2Crew installer.

 

I don't have FS2Crew installed but back when I did, for the FS9 737, it added some icons and popups. Obviously this changes panel.cfg but it didn't modify the panel itself.

 

If the EULA wording is overly proscriptive or contradictory then PMDG should sort that out. In previous discussions some people have interpretted the wording as prohibiting repaints even though they are permitted explicitly in other sections.

 

The odd thing is PMDG provide a means for users to customise panel and lighting colours. Images and videos of these "improvements" get posted which are more damaging to the product integrity than using FS2crew or Immersion ever would be.

[Flying Penguin 44]

I don't have FS2Crew installed but back when I did, for the FS9 737, it added some icons and popups. Obviously this changes panel.cfg but it didn't modify the panel itself.

 

If the EULA wording is overly proscriptive or contradictory then PMDG should sort that out. In previous discussions some people have interpretted the wording as prohibiting repaints even though they are permitted explicitly in other sections.

 

The odd thing is PMDG provide a means for users to customise panel and lighting colours. Images and videos of these "improvements" get posted which are more damaging to the product integrity than using FS2crew or Immersion ever would be.

 

 

You are right that it's really just a wording thing.  As it stands it refers to "any of the files included with the PMDG product", which catches anything and everything, including the cfg files.

 

Why does it matter?  If PMDG are going to say specific addons are verboten (rather than just unsupported), but let others slide by unacknowledged, then there needs to be something that helps the end user decide without having to rely on forum comments several months after a product release (and after the product as been purchased).  If (as I suspect) the intent is that deep changes are prohibited, but more light touch changes to configs are permissible, then it is for PMDG to confirm that explicitly (and ensure it is reflected in the EULA), not for us to start making "common sense" judgement calls as to what non-compliances are acceptable.

[WotanUK 289]

 

 

then there needs to be something that helps the end user decide without having to rely on forum comments several months after a product release

 

I suspect that PMDG aren't really concerned about individuals making changes, but probably are when companies are making money by doing it.  FS2Crew, doesn't breach the EULA because PMDG approved it, i imagine (i have no proof) that Bryan pays PMDG a portion per sale, or perhaps PMDG feel that FS2Crew adds enough value to allow it without a financial reward.

 

American companies are normally quite strict regarding intellectual property and licensing, much more so than European companies who demonstrate a more laissez faire approach.

[Flying Penguin 44]

I suspect that PMDG aren't really concerned about individuals making changes, but probably are when companies are making money by doing it.  FS2Crew, doesn't breach the EULA because PMDG approved it, i imagine (i have no proof) that Bryan pays PMDG a portion per sale, or perhaps PMDG feel that FS2Crew adds enough value to allow it without a financial reward.

 

American companies are normally quite strict regarding intellectual property and licensing, much more so than European companies who demonstrate a more laissez faire approach.

 

As I said above, the EULA doesn't even specify that the end user has the right to use add-ons that PMDG has authorised.  Therefore it's not the development that is the issue, it's me, muggins here, that is breaching the EULA by using it.  

 

I gave clause references if you want to cross check against the EULA itself.

[WotanUK 289]

 

 

I gave clause references if you want to cross check against the EULA itself.

 

No thank you, i believe what you say.  I don't really want to comment further, PMDG have been somewhat intolerant of this type of chat in the past.

[Flying Penguin 44]

No thank you, i believe what you say.  I don't really want to comment further, PMDG have been somewhat intolerant of this type of chat in the past.

 

Understood.  

 

And for any mod reading this, if you want me to shut up, just say...  I'm used to getting told to STFU!  

[Guest]

 

 

Surely it would be better to raise a support ticket and get a definitive answer on whether the other products breach the EULA.

 

EULA violation = no support, so PMDG would be under no obligation to respond ... but I am very curious why you don't want this to be discussed in PMDG's own forum?

 

There are implications now with existing products and it'll certainly set a "tone" for any future products that might use files documented in the FSX/P3D SDK.  I think discussing this would be healthy for the community and PMDG's existing and future customers.  Like I said earlier, I didn't bring up this EULA discussion, Kyle thought it important to remind customers and given PMDG's recent past they do appear to be VERY concerned with such activity.

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

If (as I suspect) the intent is that deep changes are prohibited, but more light touch changes to configs are permissible, then it is for PMDG to confirm that explicitly (and ensure it is reflected in the EULA), not for us to start making "common sense" judgement calls as to what non-compliances are acceptable.

 

Exactly my thoughts.

 

Cheers, Rob.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Knock it off guys...

 

You cannot alter our files unless you have specific permission to do so. Certain add-on devs do have this permission. I noted that this one currently doesn't. No need to go into an Evening News Consumer Watch with Liz Crenshaw to pick through every other possible add-on and its potential busts. If one were to take a cursory look at the EULA, they'd see that there are exceptions.

 

In cases where someone is offering something that changes things without our permission, all we'd ask you to do is uninstall it before we offer support. Done. Not a huge deal.

[Flying Penguin 44]

In cases where someone is offering something that changes things without our permission, all we'd ask you to do is uninstall it before we offer support. Done. Not a huge deal.

 

And that is sufficient clarification in my book.  If only that was obvious from the EULA....     (Ok! Ok!, back in my box......  )

 

Thanks Kyle.

[IFR7700 228]

Could PMDG publish a list of developers who have their permission to violate the EULA?  That way we can make better buying decisions.

[Don t moderate me this way 882]

(...)

 

In cases where someone is offering something that changes things without our permission, all we'd ask you to do is uninstall it before we offer support. Done. Not a huge deal.

 

 

Thank you, Kyle!

[Guest]

 

 

all we'd ask you to do is uninstall it before we offer support. Done. Not a huge deal.

 

Yep, that works for me.  But would also like to see some updated sticky or list so that we know ... something PMDG could keep updated as new products come out?

 

Cheers, Rob.