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~Craig~

Any landing tips for the A2A C182 (and 172)?

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Despite simming for a long time, and having no problems landing any other aircraft, I've always really struggled to land the A2A 172....... In saying that I don't mean I'm a wonderful sim pilot and clearly the A2As aren't realistic enough ..... I mean that it's likely that their FDE is so much more realistic than other models, that I just haven't cracked it yet.

 

Like many others, just bought the 182 ...... ooooeeeeee, terrible landings!

 

I either float forever, or else I slam down and bounce three times.    Can't seem to find the middle ground.   

 

So although, yes - I have read the checklists for speeds - can anyone give any tips or advice on speed, flaps and technique, for landing the A2A 182 smoothly, without floating or slamming and bouncing?

 

Thanks.

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You're not the only one who's got to get used to landing the 182, I've seen several posts on the A2A forum, from people who point out it needs some practice.

Being used to standard sim aircraft, I had the same problem and my mistake was coming in too steep. Non-Accusim aircraft that I have are pretty easy to land, coming in at 400-500ft/min VS and I can pull them out easy enough to make a nice landing, but with the 182 this either results in bouncing, or in smacking the aircraft on the runway. If I come in a little high on the glide slope, I correct this on the first half of the descent and make sure that from about halfway down, I fly the glide slope with around 350-400ft/min VS and come in a little low and about 100ft before the runway, I already pull up to 200-250ft/min VS.

 

I also got the Cherokee and the P-51 civ, from A2A and overall I notice that Accusim aircraft need quite a bit more finesse, in general, but especially on landing than standard sim aircraft.

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Well I don't have the A2A , I am on X plane 10 and hardly touch MSFS.  firstly I think maintain a 3 deg glide slope on final you may need to trim her

 

 172 to my knowledge is 5x 80 kts = 400 fpm.  You can also use the VASI for reference.   Flaps should be depended on the speed my guess.  I usually land around 70-80 kts.   

 

 I usually maintain 1000 AGL on downwind but I maybe wrong about that, I check the runway perch point which 45 degrees to the wing and then I bank for final. I use 30 AOB and adjust speed accordingly. 

 
Hmm when on downwind keep the runway 2/3 of the wing flying level. 

 

Correct me if wrong.

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Generally many FS add-ons are too much forgiving on the landing phase.

My tip is: Watch your speeds. The stall speeds on these things are slow, especially with full flaps. If you come in too fast you'll float forever.

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Landing a 172 at 70-80 KIAS is WAY too fast. touchdown should be closer to 35KIAS. The plane should start to stall just as you touchdown. At 80 KIAS you will need a very long runway to land properly.

 

Note that IRL no one is watching the VSI or the ASI on short final because it doesn't matter. You just need to fly the airplane at the proper pitch and power and the rest of the variables will all fall into place.

 

Watch the video above.  Trim for 65KIAS on final with 2 notches of flaps (20 degrees) and idle power or close to idle power. As you get to short final extend full flaps and keep flying the airplane all the way through the flare and landing. Do not let the aircraft land before it is done flying.

 

Do NOT fly the plane into the ground at some "low" FPM. This will damage the nose gear in the RW. You need to flare the aircraft and touch down mains first as shown above.

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Yeah I always land at 70-80 without flaps and need a longer runway. LOL.

 

My approach is always around that speed never use flaps (don't know why) and I do flare. Had many missed approaches. 

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Without flaps you should still be getting down closer to 50KIAS in the flare. It's just a simulator, you won't bend metal. Discipline yourself and slow down to the proper speeds.

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Without flaps you should still be getting down closer to 50KIAS in the flare. It's just a simulator, you won't bend metal. Discipline yourself and slow down to the proper speeds.

 

you are right. 

 

Right now I am not trying to learn the aircraft, just doing putting the lessons in to play. 

 

But it's fun and that videos nice. 

 

A2A please come to XPX :)

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touchdown should be closer to 35KIAS

The full flap stall speed is at 47KCAS. Can you confirm that you aim at 35 knots indicated (which would give you just the slightest needle movement)? :mellow:

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If it makes you feel any better I struggled with landing both the A2A 172 and 182 at first too, and I’ve been flying real 182’s for over 15 years. For me I think it’s the lack of tactile feedback when using a computer yoke. I’ve found what works for me with the A2A 172/182 is to keep a little nose down trim in so that while on final I already have a little backpressure on the yoke and it’s past the yoke center point. This makes it so that I already have pitch feel prior to the flare. Obviously this isn’t something you’d want to do it the real thing because it would make the flare that much heavier. I’ve ordered one of those IRIS dynamics yokes and I’m hoping it’s the game changer when it comes to yoke forces and trimming in the sim and I can start doing things correctly again.

 

 

As far as numbers are concerned Oracle427 is spot on, don’t concern yourself too much with actual numbers, it’s more about the overall picture then hard numbers. Of course airspeed is important and you do want to make sure it’s under control, but after the first time your instructor pulls the power abeam the numbers on downwind you’ll give up the whole VSI glideslope angle thing because you won’t make the runway.

Brian

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CoolP,

 

In ground effect you will get much lower airspeeds before a stall, so I am guesstimating the speed close to touchdown is around 35KIAS, but I don't have a recording and I'm not watching the airspeed on short final when I'm visual. I know that I can glide it in at idle at 45KIAS without stalling and then flare and land for a short landing, both RW and A2A 172.

 

BTW, Vso for a 172R is 33KIAS.

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So the main point I learned in that video above, is how early he is going "power off" compared to what I've been doing.

So I've just been off to my new base at 8W2 and tried an approach in the 172  (I'm not going to move up to my A2A 182T until I've nailed landings in the A2A 172 first)..... followed most of the advice, took the power off early (around 100AGL), wow, what a difference!

I think this was my main fault - I was flying the 172 and 182 like a Q400;  onto the runway, under power.

Thanks, this really helped!

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The full flap stall speed is at 47KCAS. Can you confirm that you aim at 35 knots indicated (which would give you just the slightest needle movement)? :mellow:

44kts is VS1, no flap stall speed (the end of green tape).

The full flap stall speed in the 172R is 33kts (the end of white tape).

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Also CoolP, do not confuse KCAS with KIAS. KCAS is commonly quoted in the POH, but KIAS is what you see on the ASI and it can vary a lot especially at high AoA such as slow flight. There are conversion tables in the POH, but the Vso is published.

 

In this case the KCAS and KIAS for Vso varies by a lot at 14knots!!

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The value I've posted came from the A2A docs.

Flaps Down, Power Off: 47 kcas (p.43)

I would assume that this is the one their model is aimed at. I was quoting KCAS and asked specifically about your indicated value, yes.

 

 

 


so I am guesstimating the speed close to touchdown is around 35KIAS

Do we agree that focusing on the touchdown speed (as opposed to approach speeds) might be misleading?

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Approach at about 60-70 knots and as you are about 10 ft above the runway cut the power to idle level off and look at the end of the runway or horizon. Flare and ride the stall horn until you touchdown. I normally only put about 20 degrees of flaps unless I'm landing at a short runway. 

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You approach the runway won't the pilot use 3 degrees ? I am confused.  I am not talking about touchdown. But at least on final with the power / trim / flap settings and a 3 deg the correct way ?

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Correct, the KCAS is the published value in both the real and A2A docs. But no pilot can see KCAS on any instrument panel. The manual also includes the 33KIAS full flaps stall speed on page 47.

 

A lot of videos recorded by sim pilots that I have watched show them flying right onto the runway without any attempt to flare at the approach speed and that is not correct. The approach speed is maintained up until the glidebreak beginning roughly one wingspan above the runway at which point the aircraft will progressively slow down until touchdown. The reason I'm calling out the slower speed is because I get a sense that a lot of people feel that the airplane can not or should not be flown slower until touchdown.

 

I must stress that one should just fly the airplane to the proper position and not be watching airspeed at this point in the landing. The airplane will stop flying when it is ready to do so and the pilot should keep it flying just above the runway until the aircraft can't fly anymore. 65KIAS is a documented airspeed for approach for a normal landing that will achieve the documented landing distances in "standard" conditions with a "standard" pilot. :)

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The technique I learned from my CFI was simple in both the 152 and 172

 

Once you know you will make the runway, power off maintain 65 knots IAS with a fixed frame of reference at the far end of the runway. (the runway end itself works well for this purpose)

 

When you see the fixed ref point start to 'rise' then you know its time to start the flare. Other than maintaining the approach speed of 65 knots, I never needed to know what the speed was going into the flare. At that point the aircraft stops flying and if you have timed it nicely, you will get the stall horn kicking in a fraction before your mains touch down.

 

It takes a while to 'get' it, but eventually you do.

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This is an example of what I mean about flying onto the runway.

 

The airplane is initially at structural cruising speed at the beginning of the approach, and beyond max flap extension speed until short final. Touchdown is at around 60KIAS.

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Oracle, I did not intent to cause any trouble for rw flyers. :smile: Although I admit that I would have loved a clear answer on

Do we agree that focusing on the touchdown speed (as opposed to approach speeds) might be misleading?

 

The reasons behind avoiding any 'touchdown' (IAS) values actually got outlined by you, so we seemed to be in agreement, somehow.

 

I was just wondering about the conclusion, namely to aim for an indicated airspeed value, while being at a high aoa (actually, the highest of the complete flight) with lots of workload arising from the fact that you are about to be ground based again.

 

So the other solutions (like the one from Glenn above), with aiming for an approach speed (where time, workload balance and proper indication are given) and then looking for a pitch value and/or observed relationship to the runway seemed more reasonable.

 

I fully agree on your remarks about not wanting to fly on the runway and I certainly welcomed the details about differentiating between the small GA planes and the tubeliners.

 

Oh, I forgot to add that A2A, among only few, surely helps us sim pilots with their way the stall horn got modelled. Unlike the default system variant, it actually activates before you are stalling which is a great help, real and sim-wise.

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I am pretty sure we're in agreement, and I like having this discussion. It's great to see sim technology pushing the boundaries and allowing everyone to hangar fly in this manner. :)

 

Yes, developing the correct runway visual references is extremely important. I also do not want to suggest that anyone should attempt to fly the aircraft down to Vso by watching the ASI during the landing approach. I do want them to know that they will reach Vso or get very close to it prior to touchdown during a normal landing.

 

A lot of landing issues are due to airspeed control. However, airspeed control doesn't come from monitoring the ASI in this high workload time.

 

One can get all the airspeed information they need by stabilizing and trimming for 65KIAS early in the approach. Remember that pitching up will slow down the aircraft and if power is added the airplane's descent rate will decrease. Small corrections early in the approach keep things nice and stable. Practice makes perfect! In fact non-stop practice is required even in the RW because these skills deteriorate quickly. :)

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It's great to see sim technology pushing the boundaries and allowing everyone to hangar fly in this manner. :)

 

Very true. Devs like A2A really hit a spot. Or just showed that flightsim is a business full of nerds. ^_^

 

Besides, I read more than once that simple AOA indicators are becoming more available/popular even for the small GA planes. You can even select the type of landing you intend to perform.

 

FAA wants angle-of-attack systems in GA aircraft

 

A system in action. "Fly AoA!"

 

Forgot to add. To add such a simple gauge to any sim plane should be easy to do and might, at least initially, establish a 'feel' on an otherwise vague situation like a simulator landing. The sim constantly puts out AoA data, you just can't see it (yet) in the VC.

 

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I also have had issues landing the A2A 172.

 

My issue has always been the ground effect seems off to me. While at the proper approach speed 60-70kias, flaps 20 degrees with a 300-400 fpm descent. Note aircraft is trimmed. About 10 feet above the runway I pull back on the yoke just a little to round out and the A2A 172 seems to pitch down instead of pitch up...which then causes me to pull back on the yoke further into a flare before I wanted to flare...stall horn sounds and touch down...sometimes hard.

 

This has been my experience. What I haven't tried was to round out sooner...but I do not want to develop a bad habit. Note sure about pulling power all the way out on a 172...I have flown these in real life and do not recall having to pull power all the way out until I've round out. But I could be wrong, I'm flying low wings now and you do have to pull power as soon as you know you can make the runway.

 

Also, keep in mind if you're flying a heavy crosswind you do not want to pull power out to soon.

 

-Ray

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