"Wow, sad to say I've read quite a bit of criticism over Mike Stone's aircraft. I find they are more than adequate to suit my own needs in FS. He is modelling some things that are next to impossible to find, and I have MOST definately seen worse out there." Yeah, I hear you man... but then us "Hillbillies" thank CornPone andSow Belly is purty good eatin':-badteeth So mayhaps we just ain't aspersnickitty as some folks. "They's only two kinds of folks in this world...them what's been toJoplin, and them what ain't." DennyProfessional Tourist

Jeremy,Great to see Mike getting this type of recognition. He has kept plugging away, and his work fills so many types of voids in our hobby. My attempts at modelling leave me frustrated--not because what I want to do is impossible, but because it takes a level of patience only Mike and perhaps a few dozen others can show. Anyone can release an aircraft and call it a Tristar. It takes someone like Mike to take an aircraft and get it to look like a Tristar. -John

Now there's a good point re World perceptions. Many moons ago I worked in a hotel - got a call late one night from a guest who refused to believe that I, a Jamaican in Jamaica, had no clue where to get weed *:-* regards,MarkXPHomeSP2/FS9.1/3.2HT/1GIG/X700pro256I man shall forward and wash I dreads now...

That's funny Mark--I also worked in the hotel industry for fifteen years, four of them behind the front desk. The calls I'd get were quite funny at times. My favorite came in when I was working audit--a call came in and someone said "Sir, you have a little dog running down the hall in a Tutu". I went upstairs and sure enough the cute little critter was running down the hall, being egged on by some guests in various states of intoxication. My second favorite memory was when this guy in jeans came up, chatted with me for several minutes just asking how I liked living where I lived (the Napa Valley at the time), and then checked out and drove away in what I'd call an old clunker. It was Bill Gates--worth only a billion dollars or so in those days. The very next day was the 87 Stock Market Crash. I joked with my friends "Hey, I met this guy worth a billion dollars yesterday, and he's only worth 750 million today". But that memory is probably why I come down so hard on Gates bashers. I am a good judge of men, and for a man in the position he was in during those times to talk to me--actually converse with me and not treat me as a servant--that left a lasting impression regarding my view of his character.-John

so are you guys saying that critisising freeware developers is a no no, or are you saying the way he did it was a no no?Personnaly I wont fly Mike stones planes but I use tham as AI sometimes.shouldnt even freeware developers be kept "in line" when they release crappy software (not saying mikes is crappy, just refering to software in general)?If something is wrong or needs fixing it should be brought to the developers attention, even if you got it for free, of course there are ways to put it as not to be rude.

Don't be silly, honesty is not tolerated in the FS community. Remember, if you can't say something nice, lie! :-hah

"shouldnt even freeware developers be kept "in line" when they release crappy software (not saying mikes is crappy, just refering to software in general)?"The problem with this is it holds freeware authors to an external definition of what's good and what's bad, not theirs. Not every freeware author goes in with the objective of creating a 100 pct. bona fide accurate to every system and every nut and bolt model. Many authors release their work as an afterthought, or in the hopes that even a handful of simmers will get entertainment from their work.Calling anyone's work "crappy" in a public forum when one hasn't paid a dime for it is akin to skimming the sewer in my opinion. Freeware authors don't get paid to hear it. I don't have anything wrong with constructive public criticism, but it's still the freeware author's right to heed or ignore it--it doesn't make their work any worse if they do ignore it. But such criticism should be delivered with the same level of class that freeware authors show by releasing their work for free to begin with.-John

>Don't be silly, honesty is not tolerated in the FS community.>Remember, if you can't say something nice, lie! :-hahNow c'mon Erick, that's a daft statement! Honesty has nothing to do with it. Opinions are subjective.Sadly, we live in a world where manners and courtesy are now often seen as superflous. But in my view, it's not necessary to act like a pillock when making your point. Mark "Dark Moment" Beaumonthttp://www.swiremariners.com/newlogo.jpg

Okay john, so you agree with me, I said the same thing, if your gonna slam a product do it mnicely in hope the author will fix it.I dont think the freeware sites should be cloged with junky add ons, like a plane that supposed to look like a specific plane but doesnt, or a plane with such flight dynamics that it cant be flown, and so on and so on, just because they do it for free doesnt mean they cant use some critisism to improve it. and I would think that they would want it to be good as possible, altho I must admit that I have emailed a few authors asking for such things as night time textures on their buildings so they dont glow at night, or a 2004 update to really good 2002 scenery only to be told "no, I wont be doing anything else to it". So my option at that point is to live with the add on or remove it from my system, in the case of the no night textures issue, I removed it, I cant live with glowing buildings at night.I have done a few repaints and I got emails telling me my color was off in a certain place and I fixed it, I wanted that paint to look as good as it could or to my abilities and the people that emailed me was very happy with the fix.So anyway, I think a bad product should be kept off the freeware servers and improved on if needed....even if it's free, I dont mean everyone should put out a PMDG 737 but something thats good.

"So anyway, I think a bad product should be kept off the freeware servers and improved on if needed....even if it's free, I dont mean everyone should put out a PMDG 737 but something thats good."Then we don't agree at all. I don't think it's your right or mine to define someone's work as a bad product unless they've asked us for money. Edit: What we believe in private, that's another story. What satisfies me may be trash to you--but by your standard it shouldn't be hogging the servers?Pigeon-holing freeware into "good" and "bad" discourages authors from learning--some of the early creations of today's notable authors started out a lot less than what they give us today. Unless you can place your work somewhere to see how it's received, there's no way you can get better as an author. We do agree that constructive criticism is good, but declaring someone's work null and void--the only way that should be done is by releasing work of our own. IOTW, if we want to perceive a product as being so bad we consider it a waste of bandwidth, we should be able to counter with one of our own.-John

Well, even freeware authors need feedback. even if its not positive. Creation is evolutionary insofar as learning FS modelling. However, no need to be rude. Thats not motivating at all. Also, not all authors choose to be uber anal in what they personally want to model.Having said that...the whole idea that just because its free, it doesnt deserve (constructive) criticism is FALSE. As for Mike Stones stuff... I love Mikes work. I respect his chosen level of detail for what it is and find it works perfectly on my machine as AI. I personally want more detail and often choose payware for my addons for that reason. However, I use a great number of Mikes freeware models on my PC daily in the AI form. Eric

Eric, I agree.Take a look at my comments below. The problem is, most people here don't know how to deliver constructive criticism. Either that, or they place their standard on what an aircraft should be and completely ignore an author's artistic license. Mike's work is a good case in point. He isn't trying to be PMDG or even Erick Cantu. He is being Mike, delivering what he wants and what he enjoys doing in the time he feels each project is worth. If someone wants to add a VC, or wants to add photoreal textures--that isn't the niche he's shooting for and why should he take any grief for it?Chuck Dome's work is another example. Why should he read comments like "I dumped it from my hard drive, because it looked too simple". Perhaps he isn't shooting for high quality, but for high quantity. I also think before any freeware author hears any criticism, no matter how "constructive", it should be discussed via personal email and not in the public forums. Being a freeware author DOES deserve that respect and public criticism ISN'T deserved.-John

It's not daft, criticizm simply comes with the territory. If you have a concern or opinion, you should feel free to post it without fear of being bashed simply for having it! If I mess up, I generally like to know about it. People need to be more honest, it's the only way we improve.

I wood komeant on yuur vuuwpoynt but maybee where nut smart enuf here. :-lol :-lolhttp://forums.simflight.com/viewtopic.php?t=39000Let alone only signing up here to let's see, oh yeah, here it is:"but I wouldn't even go there except to support FE2004, thats the only reason I signed up there....To help Peter."So did you just sign up to advertise a commercial product and that's it?Well, anyway, welcome to Avsim and I hope you enjoy your stay for whatever ulterior motive you originally chose to sign up for. :-)Sonar5Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

Erick,Not everyone has your skills. Some people simply want to release something that looks close to a Beech, or a Cessan, and move onto the next project. And, they enjoy sharing their work--that's all. They aren't looking for their work to be categorized, rated, or looking for careers as payware developers. Some do solicit comments, but most don't want to be sliced and diced in a public forum. I do know how well you tolerate comments--I've made observations about your work and you've always handled it well, but at least I like to think I kept my manners intact. But you are also light years above where I and most will be in 3-d design and you have the confidence to tolerate the fools who don't show manners here in the forums. For others, their freeware careers may get flushed down the toilet because of words said about their work.-John