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Ecosse_821

New pilot, NGX

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Hello all.  For years I have considered the NGX to be the granddaddy of them all, in terms of complexity/realism.  I decided to leave it alone and have gradually worked my way up with other add-on aircraft that are a little less intimidating. 

A couple of these others are FMC type jetliners, so, after mastering them, I decided to finally take the plunge!

 

This product is really nice.  Great docs and tutorials.  I very much appreciate the "everything running and ready to go" state that one can use to learn how to fly it first.  I spent two days doing that, then yesterday decided to tackle a "cold and dark".

 

I got it figured out in no time.   I am having a blast with this plane, flying it mainly between Chicago, Cleveland, and NYC.  These are pretty short flights, so I can get a lot of approach and landing practice.

 

Thanks again for putting so much into this plane, it really resulted in a terrific value.  The pride taken in it shows through and through!

 

 

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I got it figured out in no time.   I am having a blast with this plane, flying it mainly between Chicago, Cleveland, and NYC.  These are pretty short flights, so I can get a lot of approach and landing practice.

 

Good choice of short routes to get used to the plane. Glad you're enjoying it.

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After 2 years I'm also still learning. Greatest airplane for me.

+1.

 

To the original poster, good luck, you will have a lot of fun trying to master the ngx. When you get bored of just flying, you can start flying with planned and un-planned failures.

 

Brian Nellis

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Hi 

Flew this a lot around Europe in the 1-2 years after release. Not touched it for a while as I've been busy with 'heavies'.
Installed a few days before Christmas..... main aim to hear the sounds when the engines start  :lol:

Did a quick test last night around Corfu and will defo be flying some routes this year in her.

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Like the short hops myself. Which is why I keep running the 737, and haven't tried the 777 yet.

The big bird seems more catered to the long haul flights, and I just don't have the patience to stay at cruise till the cows fall out of the sky..

And still plenty to learn on the 737.. I've been running it since it came out, and still have plenty

more to learn about it as far as the more obtuse quirks.  So it still keeps me busy.

I'll probably try the 777 one of these days, but think I will still prefer the slightly more manual

systems of the 737. And like I say, it much more suits the length of my usual flights.

To me, Houston to LA is a long flight..  :wacko:   Most are much shorter. 

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For me simming means NGX. It's the cats' whisker. Consider getting the FS2CREW button, or voice, if you prefer. It really helps to have a first officer flying with you to help with the work load. You can even make announcements, and call the flight attendant to order drinks and sandwiches. Adds to the fun.

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The only thing I'm having trouble with is VNAV descent and approach.  I have learned how to put wind predictions in the DES page, so I'm getting down to around 6000 with no problems, but once I turn onto final I cant seem to get my flaps schedule right or something, because it just can't seem to get down to the glideslope.   It is almost like it isn't really trying. 

I've never really been able to get that part right with any of my VNAV capable planes.  I have no trouble with climb and descent, just the last part of the approach and getting the transition from LNAV/VNAV to LOC/APP and figuring out when and how I'm supposed to help it with flaps and gear. 

If anyone wants to try the approach I'm doing, it is a flight from KMDW to KCLE at FL310.

 

The plan is RWY 22L, then Midway 7 departure then LEWKE.GIJ.CRL.SSUNN.HIMEZ.PUDSE.LACIK.JEDSU.RWY24R

 

CRL SSUNN and HIMEZ are part of the HIMEZ2 star, and from PUDSE on is the ILS for RWY24R.  I'm supposed to be at 6000 for PUDSE and is from there where I can't seem to get down enough to get the glideslope.

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You might want to watch my How To Fly A Perfect ILS Approach video. It was made to eliminate those problems!

 

My signature has my YouTube Channel link.

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You might want to watch my How To Fly A Perfect ILS Approach video. It was made to eliminate those problems!

 

My signature has my YouTube Channel link.

Ralph I appreciate your videos. Do you plan any RNAV app videos?

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Ralph, does your video have any information that pertains to my specific issue with having trouble getting the final descent and speed/flaps/gear schedule when changing over from LNAV/VNAV to LOC/APP on the final approach?  

I have flown thousands of ILS approaches.  The key difference here is that I have always flown them where you are stabilized at an altitude below the glideslope and you capture it as you fly into it.  I know how to do that!   The specific issue here is that I don't know the when and how of the flaps/gear when I am coming in from ABOVE the glideslope as one must do under this VNAV regime.

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The specific issue here is that I don't know the when and how of the flaps/gear when I am coming in from ABOVE the glideslope as one must do under this VNAV regime.

 

You should never be capturing from above. If you are, then you're not doing it correctly, or your nav data isn't correct. What STAR/approach are you using that is placing you in this state?

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You should never be capturing from above. If you are, then you're not doing it correctly, or your nav data isn't correct. What STAR/approach are you using that is placing you in this state?

 

 

Flight is KMDW-KCLE at FL310

 

The plan is RWY 22L, then Midway 7 departure then LEWKE.GIJ.CRL.SSUNN.HIMEZ.PUDSE.LACIK.JEDSU.RWY24R

 

CRL SSUNN and HIMEZ are part of the HIMEZ2 star, and from PUDSE on is the ILS for RWY24R.  I'm supposed to be at 6000 for PUDSE and is from there where I can't seem to get down enough to get the glideslope.

 

The last waypoint before I turn to PUDSE at 190/6000  is HIMEZ, on the HIMEZ 2 STAR.  It says to cross HIMEZ at 250/10000.  Hence coming in from ABOVE the glideslope.   I am right there at PUDSE at 6000, but the the next waypoint is LACIK at 178/5000.  That's when the plane cannot get down to 5000 which it needs to do to not be above the glideslope.  

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1. I cover how to manage your speed and flaps. You may find that useful.

 

2. Kyle is correct. ..listen carefully to what he is saying.

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The chart for the ILS 24R approach for KCLE is identical to what my legs page says it wants to do for the final leg of the approach.  PUDSE at 190/6000.  LACIK at 178/5000.   CIVAC at 166/4000.   JEDSU at 154/3000.  If I could get the plane to follow these, I am on the glideslope.  Not above or below. 

The part I think I am needing help with is when and to what degree to extend flaps and gear.  

 

Tutorial 1 does an approach this way---you do not fly into the glideslope from below it.  Your LNAV/VNAV puts you on the glideslope by being at certain waypoints at certain altitudes and speeds.  AT some point you switch to LOC/APP and there is nothing to capture---you are already on the localizer and glideslope by virtue of LNAV/VNAV!!!

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The last waypoint before I turn to PUDSE at 190/6000  is HIMEZ, on the HIMEZ 2 STAR.  It says to cross HIMEZ at 250/10000.  Hence coming in from ABOVE the glideslope.   I am right there at PUDSE at 6000, but the the next waypoint is LACIK at 178/5000.  That's when the plane cannot get down to 5000 which it needs to do to not be above the glideslope.  

 

Ah - there's the problem.

 

Here in the States we do not magenta line the whole flight in most cases (though some airports do - rare, currently). You'll note that the STAR chart ends with "expect vectors to final approach course" (down at the bottom left). Additionally, the chart for the approach does not pick up at either HIMEZ or CLE. These facts combined basically mean you're going to be on HDG SEL to get vectored around. Do not connect HIMEZ to the approach, because, as you can see, it's not going to end well (and it's not designed to be done.

 

What's happening is you're trying to force the plane to accept an unrealistic operation by connecting those legs. This is leaving you no time to slow down and configure.


 

 


Tutorial 1 does an approach this way---you do not fly into the glideslope from below it.  Your LNAV/VNAV puts you on the glideslope by being at certain waypoints at certain altitudes and speeds.  AT some point you switch to LOC/APP and there is nothing to capture---you are already on the localizer and glideslope by virtue of LNAV/VNAV!!!

 

Ehhhhh...kinda sorta...but not really.

 

In the tutorial, you're not capturing the glideslope from above (diving down to try and catch it). You're right on it. That's acceptable in that case. Coming off of vectors (the case at CLE), you should never come at it from above.

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I see what you are saying, Kyle.   I will probably never do flights like this once I see it work properly once or twice. 

 

What I prefer to do is fly with the FSX ATC (I know, I know, lol)  and use VNAV to climb, then switch over to ALT HOLD when i get to cruise.   Then I use LVL CHG to descend and HDG mode once ATC starts vectoring me.   That works well for me, and I have no issues shooting the ILS or a visual or whatever. 

 

I just wanted to see this work before going back to my tried and proven method.  Kind of like autoland.  Pretty nifty to see it work a few times, then I never really use it.  I actually love hand-flying this and other jetliners.  I usually disconnect the AT and AP at around 1500 feet AGL and take her in manually.

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Jordan1995, on 02 Jan 2015 - 1:38 PM, said:

Ralph I appreciate your videos. Do you plan any RNAV app videos?

 

Jordan,

 

Well, I guess this is as good a time as any to post on AvSim. I am going to make a formal announcement later this month but here's a peek at what I am up to in the video production department.

 

To answer your question up front: no I don't plan to do any RNAV 737NGX videos.

 

In 2015 I will be moving to another aircraft platform with my training videos. The B-777. I am going to organize in a slightly different manner than I did with the 737NGX videos. With the 737NGX I had a team of reviewers (Kyle here was one of them) who checked my videos for accuracy and content, etc. before I released them. I think together Kyle, myself, Michael Cubine, Matt (a real world 737NG pilot and Eric Martin, all made and contributed to making some outstanding 737NGX training videos. 

 

The MCP series, taking over 20 videos to cover, is the most comprehensive MCP training series you will find anywhere! As I've always said, my hat is off to my review team for helping to make these videos happen.

 

With the 777 I am assembling a team of real world 777 pilots: a current 777 pilot, a retired 777 pilot and one active 777 sim instructor working for a major airline in the US. These folks will serve as my video reviewers for my 777 training videos and, like the 737NGX, I will be following the Boeing standards as far as procedures go.

 

For anyone who might ask what will my 777 training videos look like, just watch a few of my 737NGX videos and you'll see my teaching style and structure. My teaching style and the structure will be the same.

 

The 777 sim product I am planning to use is the CaptainSim 777. They have been very responsive to my inquiries and have agreed to partner with me and have given me permission to use their 777 product in my training videos. Due to software licensing issues, I need the permission of any 777 sim maker before I can actually use their product in my training videos.

 

I don't need to go into the details, so I will just say that PMDG was unresponsive to my multiple inquiries over a 3 month period to work with them and their 777 product for my videos. So, I had no choice but to finally give up on them.

 

I may end up buying their 777 product to check my scripts against their implementation of the 777, but I won't be actually using their product in my videos. I cannot get their owner, Mr. Randazzo to return my phone calls. I would like to make sure my training videos work for both products as those are the main two 777 sims out there. I think I owe the flight sim community this much. I might also add that Wilco was unresponsive as well to my inquiries regarding using their 777 product in my videos.

 

I think in an ideal world, it would have been nice to get agreements from both CaptainSim and PMDG to use both of their products in my training videos. I think this would have been in the best interest of the flight sim community. But I got approval only from CaptainSim, so it will be their 777 used in my videos.

 

In 2014 I made 36+ 737NGX videos and am currently working on my last two videos covering LNAV on the MCP. I wanted to get these done before the end of 2014 but it didn't happen. I will finish and post them this month. That will then be all for the 737NGX for awhile.

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Jordan1995, on 02 Jan 2015 - 1:38 PM, said:
Ralph I appreciate your videos. Do you plan any RNAV app videos?
 
Jordan,
 
Well, I guess this is as good a time as any to post on AvSim. I am going to make a formal announcement later this month but here's a peek at what I am up to in the video production department.
 
To answer your question up front: no I don't plan to do any RNAV 737NGX videos.
 
In 2015 I will be moving to another aircraft platform with my training videos. The B-777. I am going to organize in a slightly different manner than I did with the 737NGX videos. With the 737NGX I had a team of reviewers (Kyle here was one of them) who checked my videos for accuracy and content, etc. before I released them. I think together Kyle, myself, Michael Cubine, Matt (a real world 737NG pilot and Eric Martin, all made and contributed to making some outstanding 737NGX training videos. 
 
The MCP series, taking over 20 videos to cover, is the most comprehensive MCP training series you will find anywhere! As I've always said, my hat is off to my review team for helping to make these videos happen.
 
With the 777 I am assembling a team of real world 777 pilots: a current 777 pilot, a retired 777 pilot and one active 777 sim instructor working for a major airline in the US. These folks will serve as my video reviewers for my 777 training videos and, like the 737NGX, I will be following the Boeing standards as far as procedures go.
 
For anyone who might ask what will my 777 training videos look like, just watch a few of my 737NGX videos and you'll see my teaching style and structure. My teaching style and the structure will be the same.
 
The 777 sim product I am planning to use is the CaptainSim 777. They have been very responsive to my inquiries and have agreed to partner with me and have given me permission to use their 777 product in my training videos. Due to software licensing issues, I need the permission of any 777 sim maker before I can actually use their product in my training videos.
 
I don't need to go into the details, so I will just say that PMDG was unresponsive to my multiple inquiries over a 3 month period to work with them and their 777 product for my videos. So, I had no choice but to finally give up on them.
 
I may end up buying their 777 product to check my scripts against their implementation of the 777, but I won't be actually using their product in my videos. I cannot get their owner, Mr. Randazzo to return my phone calls. I would like to make sure my training videos work for both products as those are the main two 777 sims out there. I think I owe the flight sim community this much. I might also add that Wilco was unresponsive as well to my inquiries regarding using their 777 product in my videos.
 
I think in an ideal world, it would have been nice to get agreements from both CaptainSim and PMDG to use both of their products in my training videos. I think this would have been in the best interest of the flight sim community. But I got approval only from CaptainSim, so it will be their 777 used in my videos.
 
In 2014 I made 36+ 737NGX videos and am currently working on my last two videos covering LNAV on the MCP. I wanted to get these done before the end of 2014 but it didn't happen. I will finish and post them this month. That will then be all for the 737NGX for awhile.

 

Sounds good, I look forward to the 777 videos.

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This would be easier to setup in a real world flight with ATC vectors. As Kyle said, best to NOT connect HIMEZ to PUDSE, considering the geometry of those waypoints in relation to the final approach course.

 

Lacking FSX or VATSIM ATC, what I try to do in a case like this is to "self vector" using the ND display.

 

Here is how I would fly this STAR and approach. HIMEZ is about 30 miles northwest of PUDSE Crossing HIMEZ at 10000/250, go to HDG Select and turn right to about 108 degrees, which will take you direct to PUDSE. Select your next altitude 6000 feet, and begin a slow descent using V/S Mode 1000 FPM descent rate should be more than enough. Dial down your speed to 190 and extend flaps 1, then 5 as you slow down. The goal would be to be level at 6000 feet, 190 knots and flaps 5. When you are about 5 miles northwest of PUDSE, turn left using HDG mode to 057 degrees - which is 180 degrees opposite of the inbound localizer. What you are doing is to set yourself up on what is effectively a right downwind to the localizer. At this point, insure the ILS frequency has been tuned, and the inbound course set.

 

I'd fly about 3 or 4 miles on the 057 heading, which will cause PUDSE to recede off to the right rear. Then, turn right to a heading of about 195-200 degrees. What you are doing is to set yourself up to intercept the localizer from the northeast at about a 30 degree angle. Once you complete the turn, you can actually put your heading select extended cursor right on PUDSE, though it might be better to head a little left of it.

 

As you approach PUDSE, check if you have a valid localizer and glideslope signal. If you do, you can arm approach mode, and capture both the localizer and glideslope perfectly, just about the moment you arrive at the fix. Once established, drop your gear and slow to 160 at flaps 20. At 4 miles out, slow to VREF + 5, and select landing flaps.

 

This self-vector technique works well on almost any ILS where you are approaching the IAF on an obtuse angle. Fly toward the IAF in heading select, at 5 miles, turn to a heading 180 opposite of the inbound localizer. Fly the "downwind leg" an additional 4 miles or so, then make a left or right 150 degree turn (as required) to set up for a 30 degree intercept at, or just outside of the IAF.

 

These are not hard and fast rules, but it is a technique that works very well for me when no ATC is available. Modifications may be required for approaches in mountainous terrain etc.

 

The key in the NGX I've found is to be sure you are in level flight, at 180-190 knots, with at least flaps 5 when intercepting the localizer.

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Just want to add that sometimes the speeds automatically chosen in VNAV are too high.  But also, when you set a lower speed by manually intervening, the plane usually decreases the descent rate until it slow down enough to descend at your selected speed.  This means it will be above the various target altitudes in the VNAV profile as you near your final approach and GS/LOC capture.  In a descent, VNAV is usually controlling speed by reducing engine power to idle and then controlling speed by how fast the aircraft descends.

 

So: try slowing down sooner and using drag in the form of the speed brake, extension of flaps (as you decrease speed enough for the successive flap settings) and finally lowering of gear.  Remember to close the speed brake and arm it for landing well before you land!  I generally start w/ the speed brake, then "replace" its drag by extending flaps as speed decreases, and as I near full flaps, gear extension.

 

Mike

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Thanks everyone for all the replies.  You have helped me a lot.   I got it working quite well on several of these situations.  Bottom line was I was not getting flaps and gear configured early enough.  

 

See you up there!

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