I probably need to validate my saitek controls are working properly, but from what I can tell, the reverse thrusters don't seem to do much in the way of slowing this bird down on the ground (I can visually see them deployed from external view). Is this something you guys have experienced as well?

Yes I have experienced it and it may be true to real life also.

 

I am basing this info on the FLY II manual which featured an earlier model of the Hawker. In short; it said the turbofan engines had relatively weak reversers compared to other jets.

 

To make up for the ineffective reversers the Hawker has a "Dump system". The flaps are deployed down far past a setting which is safe for flight to "Dump" lift and create enormous drag.

 

Where it gets different is how the system gets activated. The Fly II Hawker manual forbade the use of speed brakes when flaps were deployed. That is because if flaps were deployed and full speed brakes were deployed the flap system would immediately go into "Dump Mode".

 

I am not sure about the real world 850 XP, but the Carenado has a two stage airbrake lever that goes to certain settings of speed brake deployment and then a separate detente to activate ":dump".

 

The problem in the sim is it can be hard to maintain centerline while mousing down to pull the speed brake lever one more time.

 

Maybe someone else will chime in if there is a keyboard shortcut or FSUIPC method to get one to activate "Dump mode"...

 

Donald

 

I just did a flight where the landing included reversers, flaps all the way down+spoilers all the way back. Maybe it's a perceived lack of effectiveness, but at a landing speed of 130kts, it still took 3/4 of the runway to get below 60kts without applying manual breaking. I'm guessing the lift dump isn't modeled or something.

How long was the runway?

 

I find over the threshold I'm at 123-125 kias.  With full flaps and reversers I can slow enough without the lift dump system... maybe 4500 ft to turn off the runway?

 

Also I'm pretty light - I usually load no fuel in the ventral tank and 50% on the outer tanks.

KTKI - 7000ft runway. I used about 3/4 of it slowing down to under 60kts last night. I'm working another flight (this time during the day) to KMDW as we speak. I'll work the lift dump/reversers again and see if there's any difference (now that I can see what I'm doing).

 

2 pilots, 2 pax, 75% fuel load (only in the wings) out of KTKI, so I should be pretty light when I land.

KTKI - 7000ft runway. I used about 3/4 of it slowing down to under 60kts last night. I'm working another flight (this time during the day) to KMDW as we speak. I'll work the lift dump/reversers again and see if there's any difference (now that I can see what I'm doing).

 

2 pilots, 2 pax, 75% fuel load (only in the wings) out of KTKI, so I should be pretty light when I land.

 

Jets typically rely mostly on brakes to stop. The point of lift-dumping devices is to get weight on the wheels so the brakes can slow the aircraft.

 

Reverse thrust does help, but it is far from the most significant factor.

 

DB

OK.. so I should be using all 3 on landing then. I just arrived at KMDW and applied all three. Still took 2/3 of the runway, but at least I have the process down. Has anyone figured out how to key bind the lift dump using FSUIPC yet?

Lightly loaded, I've put the Hawker into a 4000 foot strip (near sea level) and had a decent amount of room to spare. 

 

Just a matter of landing technique...minimum float, quick spoiler and TR deployment, and early on the brakes.

 

DB

I'm an old bone here. In my DC-9 days we had to stop over a barely 5000 ft runway length with some 96-97 F° on the ambient temp with almost 100% humidity. One thing is the landing technique (despite it is a cross wind landing or not) I agree with DB, then make sure the spoilers are deployed at touchdown (some times DC-9 ers. were faulty on this) this is of course to SPOIL the wing lift and transfer the aircraft weight to the main landing gear and make the braking more effectively. In those planes (and suspect the current ones) 80% or more of the braking were done via the brakes system (just steel) some 12 to 15% goes on the control surfaces (landing flaps and spoilers since all this increases drag, in some crucial situations (heavy at landing and rain showers out there and short rwys) we had to get flaps 50° at touchdown to have even more drag) and last but not least, thrust reversers that provide some were around 5 to 8% contribution on braking. Yes ALL counts when braking, even our own feet like Fred Flintstone hahahaha... But yes in all the planes I flew, reverse thrusters were the least effective at braking even when we could apply full take off thrust on the reversers (DC-9) We also were warned by psychologists specialized in human behavior not to rely on the noise the reverse power produce because we had the sensation that the louder the noise the better the braking.

 

Finally there are some airports out there that forbid the use of reversers due to the noise you know. In my experience it almost did no difference yet bit noticeable on braking but in some planes is a must and some companies allow its use on short runways or forbid the use of it to prevent more wear and tear on the engines.

 

I hope my small contribution here would dissipate some doubts (or create a lot more, lol)

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Art.

Bert Pieke sent me his GTN 750 mods. In the readme it said I could activate the dump system by pressing the far right button on the DCP panel.

 

Maybe if you ask nice Bert will make an easier way to activate the dump system for people who aren't using the GTN 750???

 

Donald

Hawkers have excellent brakes - they are physically quite large for an aircraft in its weight class, and provide the majority of the stopping power on landing.

A quick note about the dump system... in the Carenado it will only activate if the flaps are already in the full down position. I do not know; but would be surprised if that were the case in the real world aircraft.

 

DOnald

A quick note about the dump system... in the Carenado it will only activate if the flaps are already in the full down position. I do not know; but would be surprised if that were the case in the real world aircraft.

 

DOnald

 

That is correct behaviour. This is an excerpt from an 800XP manual I came across:

 

During the landing run, and the flaps selected to the 45° (Land) position, lifting the AIRBRAKE selector and then moving it rearwards into the DUMP position automatically lowers the flaps from the 45° setting to 75°, and also opens the airbrakes further to provide maximum drag.

 

 

 

DB

Well color me surprised... thanx for the info.

 

Donald

Yes the hawker has " weak " reverses compared to other jets I fly....the beech jet has great TR and we use it as the primary stopping force , the n1 will reverse up to 80% there no braking needed! The falcon 2000 I now fly has powerful reverse again we use it as primary stopping and only ride brakes gently .....in the falcon we get over 70% power in reverse ....so unlike the dc9 I guess we use a lot of reverse in those corporate jets