Hi all,I also believe sites should not host any repaints for a work that contains stolen work of others.For those of you who own the harrier aircraft already, I think Rob was also looking for you to respond if you found the files to be the same as well.Regards,JoeGrab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

Hi Joe,Not yet, but I will do this at all places that I know of, and that will allow it.Avsim happens to be the first:- Since AVSIM is my most-frequent hide.- Since Tom was the first one that allowed me to post it.(I already addressed other owners of flightsim sites to get their permission to post, since I don't want to have my post locked (a waste of effort then). But sofar Tom was the only one responding.(afterall, is IS sunday :-) )Moreover, I have to start somewhere....:-)And since I am busy with this subject continuously now for the last 9 hours (since I received this last Email from DSB Design); it's now 0.57 AM (Monday) here in The Netherlands, and I can hardly keep up with this thread, and other (very positive) Emails I am receiving.Because, as I have made very clear to DSB Design: for me this is a very principle issue, especially in their case. But now I'm threading on thin ice :-)Cheers, Rob

Rob, maybe there aren't that many owners? :)Tom,the studious approach at the thread http://www.avsim.com/pages/0901/carenado_s...llegations.html impressed me that much I could still find it after 'so many years'.I guess it's actual more than ever.Maybe this approach can be established as an 'official' one ? :)

Here's a reaction I received from Alejando Villas (via Email).Unfortunately he wasn't able to post here directly, since he found out that his account here has expired :-(Alex usually hangs out at "the other site" (sorry for that :-) )Here is his text:*************Dear Flightsimmers,I publicly testify that the VSTOL gauge Rob Barendregt claims as his own creation for Harrier is really his and only his. I consider impossible that somebody could develop an exact solution to the same problem, since for over four months we both tweaked and tested with the model Adam K. Preece published trying with several different gauges Rob designed specially for the purpose and modifications to the air and aircraft cfg files Rob and me made to finally come up with what Rob published as freeware. I suggested him several solutions to make the Harrier behaves as it does now and Rob, being as skilled as he is on creating gauges, came up with the solution he claims was pirated by DSB Design. Rob still has the several mails we crossed each other to proof my statement.Two days ago Rob sent me a mail in which he says amongst other things quote:

Let's just post this as many places as possiblehttp://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaB...1041026;start=0

Wow, this is really crappy and an obviously brazen case of piracy. I don't own this Harrier, but it's very very apparent that Rob is telling the truth here - I see no reason at all why he'd go out of his way to make these claims if they weren't true.Having done some "by hand" web development, I can say with absolutely certainty that no automatic HTML or XML generator is going format and code with exactly the same style as a competent designer who does everything by hand in notepad. Try making a simple web page by hand some time using the W3C formatting guildlines and then go make the same page in a WYSIWG editor like MS Front Page and watch how incredbly different and less efficient the code output is. What XML development app is going to have a custom routine for tricking MSFS into realistic VSTOL characteristics anyway? Cmon...Unbelievable that DSB had the gall to do this since it's so easily checked for. Shame on them.

Rob,Unfortunately, this is not something new. I personally can relate to the frustration and outrage you experience because many of the innovations I personally developed over the course of many years work has ended up in Commercial projects without my knowledge or agreement. It still ends up there because innovations in my area of expertise can't really be protected in just the same way as XML innovations can't. In my case, after much frustration and annoyance at the general lack of community support over theft of IP ... seeing people profiteering from my work ... I finally quit doing Freeware because it was either do that, or turn my back on the (generally agreeable) interest we share in common. Don't let these people off the hook if you genuinely believe there is a moral imperative you cannot ignore. There seems to be a growing community resentment towards theft of IP that wasn't apparent three or four years ago - which is encouraging.Best,.....http://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

Hee hee...we shall see.

Good luck, Rob.To those who think that you can't do anything about this, I say to you that every single person who makes a resolution as a result of this situation is "doing something about it". Significant results occur as a result of individual decisions, when a great many people have reached the same conclusion. Especially if those decisions are further-reaching than the present circumstance -- if not only this payware Harrier, but all other products from the same company were boycotted, it WILL have an effect. And if the company in question is told WHY this is happening, they will take notice.To those saying that SimMarket has not done enough by taking only the Harrier off their catalogue until this has been 'clarified', bear in mind that they are unlikely to know for certain whether this is an intentional move by DSB, or if DSB have themselves merely been caught out by a deceitful third-party. Rob's experiences suggest to us that DSB are also at fault (at the very least for the way in which they have attempted to deny any responsibility since Rob brought this to their attention), but SimMarket can only take Rob's word for that, and until more facts are available we can only reasonably expect them to act on what is obviously true, which certainly warrants them halting sales of the Harrier, but does not yet warrant further actions, I think.

I have compared "HarrierVSTOLControlF10.xml" (Rob's code) with "VSTOL Controller.xml" (DSB code).IMO, as a software developer with 15+yrs experience, there is no way that VSTOL Controller.xml is an original piece of work. The amount of code and variables used is impossible to get exactly the same. The two above codes are indentical, minus the comments Rob added to his. Coding style can not be duplicated. Every developer has a different way of solving problem x. Sorry to see this happen to you Rob. I hope everything works out for the best.Donald Radke

"EVERY owner of the aircraft now can simply verify my claim by using Notepad"...I have done so and presently am feeling far from happy about this revelation as it's otherwise such a fine aircraft and, as a result of what appears to have been an act of premeditated stupidity, is currently under threat of being expunged. I suppose a full public apology with unequivocal acceptance of responsibility for their sins is out of the question?This may seem a radical suggestion, but rather than rushing to excommunicate this group from our community (since this may be their first transgression and we are not yet privy to the full detail of their side of this story) would it not be punishment enough to insist that their only way out of this mess would be to re-release the Harrier as freeware? We would have to insist on the inclusion of a full explanation of the history of this deplorable debacle and, it goes without saying, Rob should certainly be given the full credit he deserves. I do realize most of you are fighting to protect an important principle here and I would, of course, wish to be included amongst you on this. Piracy of any form must be condemned vigorously and appropriate actions taken to stamp it out. Only then will the message be driven home to convince all those, who may feel tempted, not to bother as they can be sure their sins will be found out sooner or later and their misguided efforts will be rewarded by shame and shun.It's just conceivable, however, that DSB Designs turns out to be a special case deserving of special consideration and perhaps we should wait to learn what they have to say in mitigation of this deplorable state of affairs. For example, it may turn out that the finger of blame is levelled against one particular individual who chose to keep the rest of the team out of the loop. In that circumstance would we still insist on liability being held jointly and severally by a group of individuals whose failure may be attributed to naivety?Just a few thoughts. It really would be a shame if others were deprived of the pleasures offered by this particular Harrier simulation. I'm sure we would all wish to see credit given where credit is due even if, in this instance, somewhat belatedly and under pressure. On a more positive note, however, this approach would at least set the record straight and, from this point onward, monetary gain for their efforts would be excluded from the equation.Mike

See Post 23 Above, and keep in mind he has attempted resolution prior to posting here.http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...74&page=#263425

Rob, What a #### shame this situation is.All I can say to you and all the other makers of add-on things is try not to get discouraged, because all of your works are very much appreciated!!!I know for me at least, it is easy to start up the FS and have fun without thinking about the people that make it all. Well now is a time for me and others to think about who makes it all :-wave So I have a question for you, beings that I don't have a Harrier yet, is your package absolutly perfect? Is there any way to improve on what you have done? If so I think that you should improve on it and make a way better airplane for free than what can be bought, just to spite the ####!!Just my two cents worth anyways,Marlin

To everyone saying this is inevitiable and nothing can be done about it, keep in mind FS addons are a very very niche market and more likely most of DSB's potential customer base for this addon is reading this thread. When a product has such a small base of users, a boycot or something to that effect CAN be successful. Just because it's a small number of people doing it doesn't mean that small group couldn't be most of their potental customer base.

Donald,Thanks for coming forward as well. Clear and very usefull statements. !!And to everyone else:Now, before asking you for a timeout UNTILL the response of DSB Design / Sigma Simulation has arrived (which I hope will be soon), I'll add a few clarifications.First and foremost, like I read on other forums: "Everyone is innocent untill proven guilty". And I happen to fully support that statement !!!The only problem is: what is "proof" ??Legal Proof ?? Sorry, no can do; I can probably never "legally" prove that one piece of text was copied from another.At best I can do:- Have Harrier OWNERS verify that the code is same, which they can easily do (and a few have done so now).- Convince the flightsim community that IF this code is equal, the chance of it being written by 2 INDEPENDANT designers is 0.000000001 %. (Which opinion is generally supported).- Make make it clear beyond reasonable doubt (see a.o. Alex' response) that I am the original creator of the code.Note again, that my main claim (piracy) is against "Sigma Simulation Products"; MY problem is that THEY don't answer and DSB Design will not allow me to approach them. And DSB Design, as distributor of the product is simply ignoring the evidence I sent them and, unlike Simmarket, won't suspend distribution while this issue is pending.I DO know why DSB Design has this attitude, but that still has to become clear to most of you first. Be patient, it will :-).So I'm ASKING you NOT to condemn DSB Design before everything is out in the open and you know all facts (or you have the "proof" in your own hands of course, if you happen to own this Harrier of "Sigma Simulation").PERSONALLY I KNOW for a fact:- That Sigma Simulation Products is guilty.- What DSB Design / Sigma Simulations have written to me exactly in my mailexchange the last 4 days.- That, in view of what they have written to me, there CANNOT be any "misunderstanding".But most of you don't know all these "facts" (Yet !!).In short, I have made ACCUSATIONS, which have been confirmed by a several repliers here (in all aspects). Which was my first goal.So PLEASE, the ball is in the hands of DSB Design / Sigma Simulation Products now; let them react first !!Which I truly hope, is very fast !But thanks anyway for the support and the kind remarks sofar :-)Best regards, Rob Barendregt