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rogwen

AI waypoints

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I was reading on here about Gary Summons scenery and how much folks enjoyed it (so did I, from his very early work onwards in 2002, I think). The subject was initially his new Humberside, but the chat moved onto helicopters and how they operate in an aircraft environment (they pretend they are planes and land on runways and then taxi to parking spots) and then the bombshell. AI helicopters can be routed via waypoints? Making scenery for Canada and Alaska (both of which can be hilly, to say the least) and with working AI often results in planes heading off into nearby mountains. Routing them to waypoints would avoid this!

 

Anyone able to point me in the right direction? I didn't add it to the Humberside topic as it seemed interesting enough to merit its own.

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Drat! But if helicopters can be forced to do this, why not planes? It is beyond my ability to even understand how, but isn't it worth pleading with the chopper modifier to extend his or her interest to fixed wing planes? Tell me who and I will follow up. And I will go look at your link.

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Drat! But if helicopters can be forced to do this, why not planes?

Flight1 Heli 2009 is based on a complete different technique. And it has nothing to do with any kind of helicopter. You might use every other aircraft which of course would take off like a helicopter. At least it could be used with Harrier or Mirage Balzac.

 

Some kind of waypoints have been created for curved approaches like at Kai Tak, Innsbruck or Juneau. The two last ones are avoiding the surrounding mountains.

 

Bernard

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Any idea who made the waypoints for AI at Innsbruck or Juneau etc? Did they come with an airport scenery?

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I found Jim, who made Juneau and Innsbruck without waypoints. He did it by exploiting a different landing procedure already part of FS9, and this would have no effect on take offs, plus it would only work in certain weather conditions. I will search on as there are other folk who have been investigating this.

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Hi Roger ?

 

I'm pretty sure you can make specific approaches to airports with ADE ( a seriously well documented app ) - I've seen discussions and if you look at the top right of the screen - there is a button to put it in approach mode where all the NavAids ae visible... The go to guy for this is Jim Vile - he's the man - I believe he was involved with the 9 Dragons curved Kai Tak approach - he's been around forever... He's usually active over on FSDeveloper and they probably have a subforum related to this...

 

Regards,

Scott

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... and this would have no effect on take offs ...

 

Correct.

 

 

... plus it would only work in certain weather conditions...

 

 

Excepted you force AI to land in fix direction like at Kai Tak.

 

Bernard

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MAIW waypoints are simple AFD used as turning points. These won't solve the problem of approaching airports near mountains.

 

Bernard

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As gaputz  said, MAIW has done a lot of work with waypoints, including using them to conduct "box searches".

MAIW waypoints are simple AFD used as turning points. These won't solve the problem of approaching airports near mountains.

 

Bernard

Um, they DO solve the problem if you make short and "invisible" runways and place them in the right spots. What happens is you force missed approach landings and the aircraft then continues on towards the next waypoint in the flight plan. It just takes a fair bit of planning, some judicious placement,  and a bit of luck.

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Um, they DO solve the problem if you make short and "invisible" runways and place them in the right spots. What happens is you force missed approach landings and the aircraft then continues on towards the next waypoint in the flight plan. It just takes a fair bit of planning, some judicious placement,  and a bit of luck.

 

Has someone try it?

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Has someone try it?

I guess I'll repeat myself. MAIW uses waypoints routinely. Dunno how to be more clear.

A search on their web forums returned 378 hits for posts containing the word "waypoints".

 

Go here, register for free and look through/post on their forums.... They don't bite and are usually very helpful.

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I emailed Jim Vile but it came back saying delivery had not located that email address. I found in a forum that he talked about "Reggie" as being someone that had done a lot of work on AI that he (Jim) had used, so I emailed Reggie. Hoping for a response. In fact I don't expect to solve the problem, but it would be silly not to try if the insertion of one waypoint then points a plane along a valley and gives it time to reach an altitude where mountains don't matter.

 

This started when 3 days ago I watched one AI plane take off from my recent creation of Seward PAWD on its way to Anchorage and fly into a mountain, while the next one turned a bit earlier and flew along a valley. I was tempted to give all my GA AI planes the same config file as the one that turned early, but given that would only solve the problem at Seward........ So it was on my mind when I found choppers using way points.

 

Now for MAIW.

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The email to Jim's buddy Reggie also came back undelivered.

 

MAIW seem to think that using more than one of their "false" waypoints between real airports doesn't always work (or ever work? their opinions vary). I looked at Seward and some other problem airports and I figured that to get a plane to reliably fly along a valley while climbing or descending needs at least two waypoints, one at each end. And that is when the valley is straight.

 

So my excitement fades and I go back to making airports in Canada and Alaska.

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The email to Jim's buddy Reggie also came back undelivered.

 

MAIW seem to think that using more than one of their "false" waypoints between real airports doesn't always work (or ever work? their opinions vary). I looked at Seward and some other problem airports and I figured that to get a plane to reliably fly along a valley while climbing or descending needs at least two waypoints, one at each end. And that is when the valley is straight.

 

So my excitement fades and I go back to making airports in Canada and Alaska.

Of course it takes more than one waypoint to fly down a valley that isn't straight. Isn't that just logical? You get the plane to be/arrive at a desired/entrance altitude with the first waypoint, then alter its direction and desired altitude with the second and subsequent waypoints. Sorry, but this seems obvious to me. It will probably take some trial and error to make it work near perfectly - and maybe it never will be "perfect", but I am sure it can be made to work within the constraints of the FSx system.

 

Can't help you with undelivered mail. I know "Reggie" was very active when I last used his stuff (a few years ago) and I also know that at least 3 MAIW guys were doing some fairly complex flyby stuff with "airshows" involving not just waypoints but also AI flightplan timing. 

 

As I said, MAIW has lots of posts on their forums as well as numerous flightplans in some of their packages that use waypoints. When I was really into military AI in FS9, I installed 90% of what they published and had no problems with 99% of that. I was also able to convert/install most of their stuff into FSX at the time. Unfortunately, that system and I no longer co-exist (it died, I got other interests and I quit simming for years).

 

Apparently, if you want to take advantage of their experience and knowledge now, you're just going to have to dig it out of their packages and forums. You get what you pay for.

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Hi Roger,

 

I just checked over on FSDevleoper - Jim was active just yesterday - he goes by "jvile" - did you try a private message or post your issue over there ? Just trying to help...

:)

 

Regards,

Scott

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To clarify for ford_friendly why, after reading through the MAIW stuff, I decided not to pursue it, please note what I wrote, that only one "waypoint" can reliably be used BETWEEN AIRPORTS according to opinions in the MAIW forums. To use three to get a plane to fly along a valley makes it unreliable and likely to fail. The result is a sudden appearance on a parking spot without landing, which is the same result if a plane hits a mountain. As I can achieve that right now without doing anything......

 

I will go look for Jim Vile at FSDeveloper (I already use the site, though I never stumbled over Jim) and I will also look at ADE9X (I use SceneryGenX for scenery making, excellent as I get scenery objects and apron edges drawn on the same page). This isn't going to go anywhere, but just in case............

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To clarify for ford_friendly why, after reading through the MAIW stuff, I decided not to pursue it, please note what I wrote, that only one "waypoint" can reliably be used BETWEEN AIRPORTS according to opinions in the MAIW forums. To use three to get a plane to fly along a valley makes it unreliable and likely to fail. The result is a sudden appearance on a parking spot without landing, which is the same result if a plane hits a mountain. As I can achieve that right now without doing anything......

To clarify for you, rogwen, you're assuming too much and/or misreading/not reading what has been done. Period. At one point a few years ago, my FS9 system had an "AI mission/flightplan" for some anti-submarine warfare aircraft installed and working which simulated a box pattern search for a submarine over open ocean and included no less than 15 waypoints between 2 "actual" airports. I took the basics from a thread on the MAIW forums and modified it for my own use. Worked just fine. It involved minimizing the lengths and widths of runways placed at an arbitrary altitude above the open ocean (if I remember correctly), eliminating parking spots period (that is, the waypoints were runway-only afcads, again, if I remember correctly), and "accepting" that there were going to be "missed approaches" at numerous waypoints - but the AI aircraft "flew" the box search pattern as expected within the limits of the FS9 system (missed approaches did involve lowered landing gear, but that's a system limitation that didn't seem to be able to be worked around. Maybe someone has found a way to work around that since then.).

 

- Do I remember exactly which package that was in or who actually posted about accomplishing that? Nope. I think one guy posted about something he was playing around with on his own system (the gist was he didn't like just having pointless ASW missions to nowhere and back), got some feedback from forum members. expanded on his idea, posted a flightplan or two illustrating what he was trying/doing, and then 3 or 4 of the more experienced MAIW guys all started playing around and posting about it. Unfortunately, I don't remember the specific guys - Reggie may have contributed, or not. I don't think he was a regular MAIW contributor, but he was really respected and when he wrote something, people listened to him. Jim Vile was more active but equally respected, IIRC. But I don't think they were the most active or key players in this ASW/waypoint box search thread I'm thinking of.

- Was it referenced in the MAIW forums? Absolutely or I wouldn't have known or heard of it.

- Can I point to the specific thread/post that talked about this? Nope.

It's been at least 4 years since I really lurked/participated in their forums. I've had a major head injury since then, my memory isn't perfect and my AI flightplanning interests have changed. I do know the use of multiple waypoints in AI flightplanning has been extensively explored and discussed on the MAIW forums and elsewhere - I followed the discussions closely because it interested me at the time. If it still interested me, I'd go read every MAIW thread and post from the beginning of the forums until I found something relevant, note the names of people participating in the thread, the specific terms they are using and then conduct searches on those terms and posts by those people until I'd exhausted the subject.

 

Then again I'd probably just go experiment for myself out in the middle of the ocean; it's faster and more satisfying for me Experimenting in the middle of the ocean minimizes the variables you have to deal with (like possible interations with other AI, for example) until you know exactly what IS and isn't happening and what IS or isn't possible. Set one view to follow the AI aircraft, another to be at a waypoint, etc. Actually WATCH and see what the AI aircraft is doing - climbing appropriately, turning appropriately, actually landing or doing a touch and go/a missed approach at each waypoint? Does the horizontal distance between waypoints make a difference? Do altitude differences make a difference - how about any connection between horizontal AND vertical differences combined? Start with the easy stuff then systematically vary the appropriate aspects of the problem. Don't make things more difficult than necessary, just be thorough and systematic. If it works over the middle of the ocean, it should work in non-flat areas - all other things being equal - within the limits of the FS9/FSX system itself. I rarely take anyone else's word for what can and can't be done in FS9/FSX. (Too many times one guy says something can't be done and then someone else has found a work-around or a real solution.) That's just me.

 

Shrug. I don't know what else to say - probably nothing you're gonna think is helpful. So, I'll quit posting in this thread now.

 

Edited to add: After forcing myself to prove to myself that my memory was NOT faulty, here's a quote from a post talking about the exact type of systematic testing involved with testing waypoints...

is the runway long enough to allow the C-5 to land, slow to taxi speed, then excellerate to t/o speed and rotate before the end of the the runway? If the runway isn't long enough, the ATC engine may be forcing a missed approach.

 

Took me about 5 minutes to find this on MAIW...The same thread also talked about invisible runways. FWIW: it's from way back in 2008.

And now, I AM done with this thread.

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ford_friendly, I haven't tried it, as I said. I was reading what others wrote and it seems not everyone agrees, from their own experience.

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I thought I posted yesterday. Scott, Jim Vile has told me to become familiar with ADE9X as there is a section in there that deals with approaches to landing, and it doesn't necessarily depend on weather. And maybe take offs too, I haven't looked at it yet. He confirmed that the MAIW waypoints won't work for this, but I don't know the reason. That's as far as I got and I won't post on here anymore unless there is something significant.

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Hi Roger,

 

Yeah - I've used ADE quite a bit for many different things - it's a fantastic program and constantly updated - I can't believe Jon doesn't charge for it.... I have clicked on the "Approach" function - looked around - but I haven't had a need to figure it out yet... I think there is a Wiki to describe how to use it... I've been a fan of your work for years too - much appreciate the literally hundreds of airports you've released... Keep up the good work... I wouldn't hesitate to post questions - I know when I'm working on projects it saves me countless hours of struggling... Best of luck to you sir...

 

Oh - if you haven't tried it - pick up Arno's Model Converter X (MCX) - it's over on FSDeveloper and it's the Swiss Army Knife of manipulating models...  

 

Regards,
Scott

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Scott, what does it manipulate? Change buildings from FS9 to FSX models? If it is made by Arno I would not be surprised to find it dealing with my every wish list. 

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HI Roger,

 

It probably includes the kitchen sink...

 

Yep - it converts FS9 to FSX... I just made the jump from FS9 to P3D (do not stop at FSX do not collect $200.00) over the Christmas holidays to take advantage of sale prices... Last of the diehard FS9 GA guys but I haven't looked back yet... The A2A and MilViz GA products are hard to beat...

 

Here is Arno's site...

 

http://www.scenerydesign.org/modelconverterx/

 

Regards,

Scott

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