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henrimarch

Perhaps some interesting points in this youtube video ?

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I like to hear some opinions about his points on engine start and flight model, especially about the roll movement.

Are these valid points or not. I am not a real pilot but read books about flight dynamics and am wondering about his arguments.

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I like to hear some opinions about his points on engine start and flight model, especially about the roll movement.

Are these valid points or not. I am not a real pilot but read books about flight dynamics and am wondering about his arguments.

 

Apparently a PMDG employee requested that he make this video So I'm sure they are aware.

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Gents,

 

The fellow who created it very strongly believes his views- which is great.

 

I'm not going to take the bait on offering my opinion of him, his opinions or their validity.  They are his opinions and he is as welcome to them as anyone else here.

 

We get a TON of feedback on every product we release.  Some of it comes to us directly in the form of questions, or forum posts.  Some of it comes from our efforts to read and educate ourselves as to what customers are experiencing with the new product.  We have become quite used to vacuuming all of this information up into our internal evaluation process where we have a number of experienced experts assist us in evaluating and verifying reported problems and recommending changes.

 

Sometimes customer feedback is right... sometimes it is wrong...

 

Sometimes our tech team picks up an issue and says, "oh, yes- you need to change this" and other times they just laugh uncontrollably and tell us to trust them.  :Tounge:

 

I always trust our experts.  We collect them for a reason - experience!

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Thanks guys for your input, but where leaves that me the user which isn't very knowledgeable about flight dynamics of a real aircraft vs the simulated one ?

I am not interested in bashing products, I love the PMDG products, but at the same time I am interested in it all and wanted to learn as much as I can.

So bought some books with sometimes different views, Rod Machado (private pilot handbook) and reading now 'stick and rudder' from Wolfgang Langewiesche (marvelous book) and try to absorb it all and see how this can effect my flightsimming.

So the question here was, has he some valid points, because I believe he has, but I am not sure.

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......So the question here was, has he some valid points, because I believe he has, but I am not sure.

 

Some of the changes in the list for the latest version suggest that at least part of what he said may have been valid.

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Some of the changes in the list for the latest version suggest that at least part of what he said may have been valid.

 

Discredit the feedback and then implement the changes anyway was always PMDG's modus operandi. Which I don't really mind as long as they are actually going to fix things that are broken - just as they partially did with the last update. So kudos for that. Still a bit distasteful to implement what he pointed out and still leave rather unfavorable post in this thread, but once again - that's usual PMDG forum approach.

 

It's a nice example of how we shouldn't blindly agree with PR-ish posts, becuase not every critical feedback is caused by, and I'm paraquoting here, "stubborn simmers that do not want to welcome developer outside of X-Plane's world". 

 

Anyhow, good job on the update PMDG and good job Aerosimgaming on the video.

Time to fly some DC-6 :)

 

 

Katrín Eiriksdóttir

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Discredit the feedback and then implement the changes anyway was always PMDG's modus operandi. Which I don't really mind as long as they are actually going to fix things that are broken - just as they partially did with the last update. So kudos for that. Still a bit distasteful to implement what he pointed out and still leave rather unfavorable post in this thread, but once again - that's usual PMDG forum approach.

 

It's a nice example of how we shouldn't blindly agree with PR-ish posts, becuase not every critical feedback is caused by, and I'm paraquoting here, "stubborn simmers that do not want to welcome developer outside of X-Plane's world". 

 

Anyhow, good job on the update PMDG and good job Aerosimgaming on the video.

Time to fly some DC-6 :)

 

 

Katrín Eiriksdóttir

 

Katrin-

 

Actually- I quite strongly disagree with your characterization here.  I have not offered an evaluation of the user's opinions, nor do I intend to.

 

Pinning "credit" to a particular person simply because he stated something that others also stated is really an insult to the members of this community who participate and provide feedback in a positive, useful manner- as well as being an insult to the developers who spend so much time evaluating customer feedback, consulting with our tech advisors and implementing solutions.

 

What you have done is along the same vein as me taking credit for Apple increasing the size of the iPhone 6 because I wrote in a blog that my iPhone 5 was too small.

 

Of course- I recognize that the primary purpose of your post was to come here and insult us with the same tired "PMDG doesn't like feedback" BS trope that axe-grinders have thrown at us for years.  I will give you some credit for having the moxxy to at least do it HERE...  in the very forum we maintain in order that our customers can...  <gasp> provide us with feedback on our products!!!!

 

The irony just kills me. 

 

At any rate- don't assign credit for feedback.  You don't know enough about the process to provide value to the conversation- and I would hate for someone to think you speak with any knowledge because you clearly do not.

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Katrin,

 

Really not seeing Robert discrediting the post or the video or anyone.

 

He said the person was entitled to their opinion, and said he wasn't going to get baited into giving an opinion himself. This was followed with an explanation of their process for determining wether something was in need of change. So not really seeing what you are here. In truth the only negative post I saw was... Yours.

 

Eirik Mcferrin

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Actually- I quite strongly disagree with your characterization here.  I have not offered an evaluation of the user's opinions, nor do I intend to.

 

That's fine. Maybe it would be helpful to read what you write before posting so you can catch the general feel of what you said. You know, someone asked you about ceratin video and you go on an elaborate writing journey about how you are not going to get baited to answer about this invidual, how people are often wrong or anecdotes about "laughing experts". That kind of gives a specific vibe.

 

I won't argue your personal opinion about myself, but there is a reason why people keep throwing those tiring, old trope axes at you guys specifically. But yes, personally I think that some posts and feedback in this forum is handled with outrageously low standard, given example of recently deleted thread treating about engine start up procedure. 

 

At any rate - I can't wait til the engine heat behaviour is fixed, so something your team of experts missed too apparently and something which obviously won't have to do anything with the video at hand. 

We buy your products anyway, so obviously you are a winner in the end. No reason to drag this discussion further :)

 

Best Regards,

Katrín Eiriksdóttir

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Discredit the feedback and then implement the changes anyway was always PMDG's modus operandi.

 

This is seriously incorrect. Just because we can be skeptical of a claim at first doesn't mean there's something nefarious behind that skepticism. I can think of a ton of examples where we were convinced by community evidence to make a change or fix. The 777's FBW issues and terminal procedure VAS leak are two relatively recent examples where we responded with fixes after being presented with verified evidence on the topic.

 

Very few people making comments about the DC-6 have actually piloted one or even flown on one as a passenger. When we have several people with thousands of hours on type telling us we have it right, we tend to believe them. Our company is also owned by someone who has a vast amount of experience with real life radial engine airplanes. Almost all of us on the PMDG team have actually flown in a radial engine airliner as a result - we're not just making stuff up here.

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I'm not going to take the bait on offering my opinion of him,

 

I will  :wink:

 

About the dihedral, he is showing lack of knowledge on how this works, and from what I can tell from his movie, the aircraft is performing just fine. (I wount go into the aerodynamic details here, but 25+ deg bank, coordinated turn.. seriously? And not even mention other parameters that ALSO influence lateral stability)

Regarding his "aerobatics" and yaw induced roll - it's not even worth to even comment on, he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about!

 

PMDG, you are doing just fine, this guy obviously has an agenda.

 

(And this is with FULL oposite aileron+spoilers)

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I truly don't understand the countless of complaints about PMDG. I've been a PMDG customer for more than 10 years now, and I was always astounded by the detail this team has put into their products, especially when you look at the limitations that FS2004/FSX came with. They always put the simulation to a higher level, and they managed to do the same now with X-Plane. 

 

Most of the complaints even seem to be on such a high level that it's sometimes even unbelievable that they come from people that are a) neither a ) pilot or b ) never even flown that aircraft. In the case of the DC-6 the combination of both a ) and b ) seems to lead to assumptions that sometimes don't even have any backing.

 

In fact, the DC-6 was just released. When is a product ever perfect on release? Do people really expect no flaws on a new product? Heck, even real aircraft manufacturers have trouble with their new airplanes. I believe and always believed that PMDG takes feedback serious, and with the update they just released they also clearly show that they care about their customers. They don't need to comment to EVERY critics, as long as they still evaluate them to find possible problems and fix them.

 

At last I also want to mention that a lot of people these days simply have exaggerated expectations. X-Plane is NOT the perfect simulator, and virtual airplanes will not fly 100% as they do in real life, they don't even do so in 30 million dollar simulators.

Just relax and let PMDG do their job, and in my eyes they do a damn good job.

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Thanks Morten, for some comments on that. That's only what I intended, but not an attack on the person but on some of his assumptions that can put me, as an user, in another direction.

I didn't agree with his tone of voice that PMDG was wrong on this and that and he know it all but tried to keep an open mind about his assumptions and gather more info from other people.

Because as an user I try to gather information about things I love, such as flightsimming, and yes Claudio, I don't expect that a simulation program of 59 dollars and an model of 70 dollars is perfect in simulating the real thing, that would be absurd.

 

And Katrin I wasn't offended with the comments of Robert, I respect his opinion.

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Gents-

 

A quick note of thanks for some of the kind things that have been said here.  I also just want to be sure that nobody goes bashing after the poor bloke who made the video.  We don't know him- and I'd hate for anyone to put him down just because he voiced an opinion, factual or otherwise.

 

I know that it is sport to bang on us for various reasons- some perceived, some valid, some completely imaginary...  We are big boys and we DO read what folks say and continually evaluate the feedback in order to make sure we don't become one of those companies so convinced of it's own capabilities that it goes off a cliff made of it's own arrogance.  Sometimes we read things that sting- but we don't ever want the community to devolve to shouting.  That takes the fun out of it.

 

When you come here- you are talking to US...  not some volunteer or a clerk or a surrogate.  If you don't like something, you can tell us and we will listen.  But as Ryan pointed out- you have to accept that we might not agree or that our expertise exceeds yours.  Just as we accept that you might not agree with our feedback.  (We really don't make this stuff up- it takes HARD work and research...) 

 

That happens in two way communication.  It doesn't make either of us wrong, or bad.  It simply means we disagree.

 

Sometimes that little point gets forgotten on the internet.  =@

 

At the end of the day we are glad you are all here- and don't mind a bit of back and forth if it ultimately improves the product line!

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Didn't we go down this very same route when the NGX737 came out? The 'experts' who pushed out YTs and videos purporting this was incorrect and that was incorrect After all, 'they' are better positioned knowledge-wise compared to real-world aviators(sic).

 

Robert, you and your company keep bringing out the aircraft, there  will inevitably be more buyers than detractors. And no, this is not fan-boy speak.

 

Awards and sales figures make the case.

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PMDG, you are doing just fine, this guy obviously has an agenda.

 

Thank you Morton, we appreciate the support. Just as an aside, I bought your 737 last week and I'm quite impressed with it, congratulations!

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Thank you Morton, we appreciate the support. Just as an aside, I bought your 737 last week and I'm quite impressed with it, congratulations!

Ah some research never hurt ;)

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Thank you Morton, we appreciate the support. Just as an aside, I bought your 737 last week and I'm quite impressed with it, congratulations!

 

Thanks Ryan, that means a lot to us personally, looking forward to your Mac release  :smile:

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