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Nick Dobda

Takeoff at flaps 15

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I've always had trouble flying out of an airport at flaps 15. Probably because I learned the process through the tutorials, and because a flaps 15 takeoff is relatively rare.

 

Flying out of KMDW though pretty heavy last night, TOPCAT calculated a flaps 15 takeoff. I will describe my takeoff last night, and what I've found on the internet this morning to help, followed by some questions

 

Taking off MDW

 

First, my speed in the MCP is always set to V2.

 

Taking off, thrust 40, wait a few seconds, click on the TO/GA and manually raise levers to takeoff position.

 

Rotate, pos rate, gear up. 

 

Now once I'm up, I'm following the flight director bar on the HUD. If I can recall correctly, that bar disappears after a few seconds, and it seems I'm on my own for the vertical navigation. I'm pitching down to accelerate, and trying to manually turn to the desired heading... and trimming... trimming... now I'm accelerating better pull the flaps up to 5. And now im accelerating, and probably overshot my desired heading... and I have no flight director to follow... so I'm trying to get back on that... and messing up my pitch so now I might be decelerating so nose down to pick up some speed.. Then I'm hearing the alt reminder that I'm approaching 3,000 that I was cleared to. trimming... trimming... (now Im doing all this without ATC, it sure would suck to have to tune the radios and contact approach while all this is going on). ok... now Im rapidly approaching 3,000, so Im nosing down so I dont go over it.. and now I'm accelerating very rapidly over flaps up.. so move flaps to up. And now I'm wildly out of trim, so Im really trying to trim it out so I can get the AP on and back in control of the aircraft. Oh crap, now I'm descending...

Anyway, obviously I need to work on this process. I found what I should be doing (as far as I know) on the internet:

 

  • Set the MCP to V2 +15/20.
  • Fly the Flight Director cues to Acceleration Height.
  • At Acceleration Height, push yoke forward reducing pitch.
  • As forward speed increases you will quickly pass through the schedule for initial flap retraction – retract flaps 5.
  • Dial into the MCP speed window the appropriate 'clean up' speed (reference the top bug on the speed tape of the PFD, usually 210-220 kias).
  • Continue to retract flaps as per schedule.
  • After flaps are retracted, engage automation (if wanted) and increase speed to 250 kias or as indicated by Air Traffic Control.

First question... set the MC to V2 + 15?

At acceleration height... is the flight director dipping.. or is the flight director in the HUD disappearing and I'm on my own to push the yoke down. And when I push the yoke down, am I pushing it down to level flight?

OK, when the speed increase past the flaps 15 bug, flaps up to flaps 5 (is there a flaps 15 bug on the tape, or do I have to figure that out before I takeoff and mentally remember it?)

Once the speed increases above flaps 5 bug (similarly, is there a flaps 5 bug?) flaps up

What is the 'clean up' speed... or is that just the speed above the "up" marker?

Finally, after increasing the MCP to 250, I'm ready to click on AP and VNAV / LNAV (or HDG)

This is sure alot of work for a single pilot when you throw in communications. Is it too much work? Plus actually lifting the gear, then turning the gear off, clicking off the lights etc. etc.

Also, I know of the acceleration height and the thrust reduction height. However, until I click on VNAV all this is irrelevant in this case isn't it? I'm setting the thrust manually then flying out manually until I'm cleaned up, the thrust is set manually once I push the throttles up, no?

Anyway, I know all of this likely is in some manual somewhere, but I'm much better at understanding when real people talk. Perhaps referencing the manual, with a real explanation or tip would be helpful and appreciated.

 

 

Maybe someone who has a process down (keeping in mind only one person can fly in the sim and has to do it all), how to do it all and when to do it all.

 

Also, an ATC question-- With all this going on, whats the "grace period" between when tower tells you to contact approach, and the time when you contact approach. It could be a few minutes before I'm to the point where I can take my hands off the wheel, look down and tune the radio. 

 

Thank you!

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AFAIK there is no "grace" period. I'm sure VATSIM controllers understand, but in real life I believe the PNF does the comms work while the PF does the criticial flight stage. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

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First question... set the MC to V2 + 15?

At acceleration height... is the flight director dipping.. or is the flight director in the HUD disappearing and I'm on my own to push the yoke down. And when I push the yoke down, am I pushing it down to level flight?

OK, when the speed increase past the flaps 15 bug, flaps up to flaps 5 (is there a flaps 15 bug on the tape, or do I have to figure that out before I takeoff and mentally remember it?)

Once the speed increases above flaps 5 bug (similarly, is there a flaps 5 bug?) flaps up

What is the 'clean up' speed... or is that just the speed above the "up" marker?

Finally, after increasing the MCP to 250, I'm ready to click on AP and VNAV / LNAV (or HDG)

 

Make your life easier and just arm VNAV prior to departure. From there, fly the FD.

 

 

 

This is sure alot of work for a single pilot when you throw in communications. Is it too much work? Plus actually lifting the gear, then turning the gear off, clicking off the lights etc. etc.

 

Nope. Defer turning the gear off until you find time, but the rest should be pretty easy if you plan accordingly. The lights can be left until you start cleaning up.

 

 

 

Maybe someone who has a process down (keeping in mind only one person can fly in the sim and has to do it all), how to do it all and when to do it all.

 

I have an old "supplementary tutorial" video (PMDG 737NGX - Supplementary Tutorial V2) up on my YouTube account that you may find helpful, as it has visuals as I'm speaking. I'm doing everything and narrating at all and managing to do it single pilot. That's not to say I have a high tolerance for task load. It's more that I attempt to spread the workload by frontloading. In other words, I do a lot of the stuff well in advance, where possible. As you watch it, you'll see that I actually get lost in running my mouth (big surprise there, I'm sure) right up to T/D, so I get behind and the backlog continues all the way down the descent path. This affects me all the way down to the initial part of the approach, where I begin the Interstate Vis to 33L.

 

It's all about leading your tasks.

 

When I took a Skychicken up the other day just to get up and out on my own, even before I left the runup block, I had my NAV1 freq, standby, and CRS set; the NAV2 freq and CRS set; the ADF freq and card set (yes, ADF, because it was actually useful that day); the COMM1 and COMM2 main and standby frequencies set; and my maps and phone (for ForeFlight) all pre-stationed at the ready.

 

Yeah, sure, a Skychicken is a lot easier in terms of workload, but the concept is the same: task yourself early so that you don't get a logjam of tasks at a critical moment. When you're flying around all of the "just tempt us to take your certificate, I dare you" airspace around DC, you're tasked enough just trying to avoid it. Toss in a busted GPS and you're in for some fun (I think it's fun, but I also started flying prior to GPS being widely available in GA fleets <- *insert crotchety old grandpa voice here*).

 

12224137_784401625019875_1004682765_n.jp

 

 

 

Also, an ATC question-- With all this going on, whats the "grace period" between when tower tells you to contact approach, and the time when you contact approach. It could be a few minutes before I'm to the point where I can take my hands off the wheel, look down and tune the radio. 

 

It's very important that you do it within a few seconds, honestly. There's no excuse on this one unless your engine just decided to eat itself. The dep freq was given to you all the way back at your clearance. As soon as you switch to tower to announce ready for takeoff, the dep freq should be put in the standby slot. From there, it's take off, adjust trim, SPACE+MOUSE down, click the swap, SPACE+MOUSE back up, announce, and keep flying. Your aircraft should already be in trim (or on AP), so this action should not be too tricky.

 

When it comes to VATSIM events, I'd argue that this is one of the most frustrating, and event-ruining issues, particularly when it comes to the approach side. I've been yelled at multiple times on freq for rushing pilots, when, if they had checked on in a reasonable time after being handed off, I wouldn't have had to vector them all around and ask for "best rate." If you're so task saturated in normal ops that a freq change needs to be delayed more than a few seconds, then you should probably reevaluate your techniques of managing work load.

 

As always with ATC, if you anticipate something, speak up ahead of time. If - for whatever reason - you cannot handle everything at once and know that this will be the case, then tell the controller. He or she will likely coordinate the issue with the controller down the line. In the departure example, the local controller could call the TRACON and ask for ("appreq") control for X, Y, and Z. This would allow you time to clean up while the tower gives you the instructions that departure would be giving you.

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The PF will just fly the plane. Then the PNF will work the radios and do other non flying tasks.

 

For atc, there isnt a grace period per se. However, these guys know youre going to be busy. When i fly out of KORD or any other busy airport, when im the PNF, and atc tells me to contact departure, ill just switch the freq. So if im busy doing other stuff with the airplane, i at least have the correct freq. tuned in so atc could talk to me seeing if i checked in.

 

Therr are times where tower tells me to contact departure and at the very same moment the captain is calling for flaps up, climb power and after takeoff checks. It gets super busy. However, i just acknowledge tower and tune the departure frequency in. At this point, im going to do what the captain asks me to do and get the airplane configured for the climb. Then i worry about atc.

 

I have had atc ask me if im with them after about 2 minites of not contacting them. I just say yeah we are here, i was getting the airplane configured after takeoff. The politely continue my climb or tell me to level off. They know your busy.

 

At the end of the day, aviate, navigate, communicate. Always fly the airplane first before you worry about atc. Even if they are yelling at you wondering where you are, fly the airplane first.

 

Hope this helps.

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Make your life easier and just arm VNAV prior to departure. From there, fly the FD


Ok, I haven't been automatically arming VNAV prior to departure. That should provide me with a pitch line to follow on the HUD at all times, correct? I'm guessing by not having it armed is why the pitch line dissappears after a certain point. Hopefully that takes care of a lot of my problems

I have had the approach freq on standby, but I don't have the switch assigned to a button press. Currently I have to pan (EZDOK) down, and click the transfer button with a mouse click. Problem being just taking my eyes off the window and HUD for 5 seconds usually screws me up. Maybe I should consider assigning a button to the transfer so I don't have to take my eyes off the HUD / window.

 

 

 


The PF will just fly the plane. Then the PNF will work the radios and do other non flying tasks.

 

Thats what I was getting at, if all I had to do was fly the plane, I could hit everything exactly and fly the plane manually the whole time if I had to. But its that taking my eyes off the guidance and losing track of whats going on for a few seconds that really screws me up. Comprehending directions from ATC also tends to screw me up while I'm trying to fly, especially if they're talking really fast and are hard to understand.

 

 

 


SPACE+MOUSE down

 

What is this command? Is it the default trim control? My setup currently has the spacebar as AP disconnect / alarm silence. I have a toggle (similar to the real plane) to control trim. 

 

 

 


ask for "best rate"

 

Curiously, what does this phrase mean?

 

 

 


call the TRACON and ask for ("appreq") control for X, Y, and Z.

 

Still trying to get a handle on physically what happens. The tower picks up a phone and physically calls s TRACON person, the asks for '"appreq" control for X, Y, and Z'

what does that phrase '"appreq" control for X, Y, and Z' mean in layman's terms? Let me guess... "Hey TRACON guy, this plane is real busy and doesn't have time to tune over, where do you want me to send him?" Does that ever happen in real life? I'd think that would indicate an incompetent crew if they couldn't handle that... only reason I cant deal with it at this point is cause...well im incompetent and doing the task of two.


 

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Ok, I haven't been automatically arming VNAV prior to departure. That should provide me with a pitch line to follow on the HUD at all times, correct? I'm guessing by not having it armed is why the pitch line dissappears after a certain point. Hopefully that takes care of a lot of my problems

I have had the approach freq on standby, but I don't have the switch assigned to a button press. Currently I have to pan (EZDOK) down, and click the transfer button with a mouse click. Problem being just taking my eyes off the window and HUD for 5 seconds usually screws me up. Maybe I should consider assigning a button to the transfer so I don't have to take my eyes off the HUD / window.

 

 

 

Thats what I was getting at, if all I had to do was fly the plane, I could hit everything exactly and fly the plane manually the whole time if I had to. But its that taking my eyes off the guidance and losing track of whats going on for a few seconds that really screws me up. Comprehending directions from ATC also tends to screw me up while I'm trying to fly, especially if they're talking really fast and are hard to understand.

 

 

 

What is this command? Is it the default trim control? My setup currently has the spacebar as AP disconnect / alarm silence. I have a toggle (similar to the real plane) to control trim. 

 

 

 

Curiously, what does this phrase mean?

 

 

 

Still trying to get a handle on physically what happens. The tower picks up a phone and physically calls s TRACON person, the asks for '"appreq" control for X, Y, and Z'

what does that phrase '"appreq" control for X, Y, and Z' mean in layman's terms? Let me guess... "Hey TRACON guy, this plane is real busy and doesn't have time to tune over, where do you want me to send him?" Does that ever happen in real life? I'd think that would indicate an incompetent crew if they couldn't handle that... only reason I cant deal with it at this point is cause...well im incompetent and doing the task of two.

 

thats what im saying, wait and fly the airplane first. Get the airplane stabilized. Level off first if you have to and then talk to atc. They are there for you. You arent there for them. With out airplanes, they wouldnt have a job. Who cares if youre a little late on a check in. Thats why there are prescribed departures for the chicago area and other big cities. Even in real life, if you were single pilot and atc tried to violate you saying you never checked in blah blah blah. The faa would probably rule on your side if you could prove you were in a flight condition which if not flown/corrected would cause you to bust a clearance.

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There is no reason why you can't switch the freq that should already be pretuned. If you can't take your eyes away for less than 2 seconds without fear of something going on I guess you should click the auto pilot after wheels up. It really isn't difficult. You are making it sound like the aircraft requires 100% concentration or it will fall out of the sky. If you trim the aircraft properly you can look away for a few seconds.

 

As far as getting directions from ATC screwing you up I guess I don't understand this either. You are given clearance before you taxi. That is your flightplan you filed and then readback. No surprises should happen. If you look at the departure charts you can see what is coming. If the ATC sends you direct a fix again that should be simple. Its in your plan. Sounds to me like you just need confidence and experience.

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It really isn't difficult.

 

Consider the confines of a flight simulator vs a real airplane. Taking your eyes off the windshield consists of clicking and dragging a mouse, moving and clicking a mouse on a particular area... all of this while having all the senses not available (im at home in an office chair, not in the cockpit). It is not easy.

 

A loss of concentration can lead to falling out of the sky in a plane this complex I think...

 

 

 


Sounds to me like you just need confidence and experience.

 

I would agree with this.

 

 


They are there for you. You arent there for them.

 

I think thats going to open up a can or worms here.. let me get my popcorn

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First, I'm in agreement with the above sentiments about ANC. Having spent a lot of time at control facilities (in the US), and on VATSIM, I'd rather see someone execute the instruction prior to reading it back if things can't be done simultaneously, or nearly so. Too often, people will read back the instruction and then further delay the action after even reading back. When working with narrow spaces, or attempting to sequence closely onto the LOC, this can prove detrimental:

 

Watch N36LU come in at about 14 seconds. The delayed turns caused some odd vectoring, which then caused somewhat of a scatter in the rest of the traffic coming in (luckily, altitude separation was maintained):

 

Time-lapse VATSIM Event from back in 2011 at DCA

 

As far as changing freqs goes, it should be as soon as humanly possible. Yes - keep the plane in the air and remain safe - but again, the freq should already be in the standby slot. Looking down momentarily to swap and then keying up to announce on freq shouldn't be too taxing, or result in a very different sight picture.

 

 

 


I have had the approach freq on standby, but I don't have the switch assigned to a button press. Currently I have to pan (EZDOK) down, and click the transfer button with a mouse click. Problem being just taking my eyes off the window and HUD for 5 seconds usually screws me up. Maybe I should consider assigning a button to the transfer so I don't have to take my eyes off the HUD / window.

 

How is it screwing things up? I'm just curious as to what the frustrations are.

 

 

 


What is this command? Is it the default trim control? My setup currently has the spacebar as AP disconnect / alarm silence. I have a toggle (similar to the real plane) to control trim. 

 

Mouse look. Hold down SPACE and then move the mouse around to look around. I use it in just about all of my videos.

 

 

 


Curiously, what does this phrase mean?

 

"Give me the best rate of climb or descent that you can possibly give." Usually, your climb speed or descent speed is set such that you have a margin on both sides (can slow down or speed up). Look at your CDU CLIMB page next time and note the MAX RATE and MAX ANGLE prompts. MAX RATE will give you the best climb rate (less ECONomic, however) to help you climb at a faster rate (more feet per min). A controller usually uses this to either get you through an altitude that another aircraft will be at in the future. As an example, you're climbing and there's an aircraft that could potentially be near you at 16,000. The controller will ask for best rate through perhaps 17000 to ensure that you will be separated without having to vector either of you around.

 

 

 


Still trying to get a handle on physically what happens. The tower picks up a phone and physically calls s TRACON person, the asks for '"appreq" control for X, Y, and Z'

what does that phrase '"appreq" control for X, Y, and Z' mean in layman's terms? Let me guess... "Hey TRACON guy, this plane is real busy and doesn't have time to tune over, where do you want me to send him?" Does that ever happen in real life? I'd think that would indicate an incompetent crew if they couldn't handle that... only reason I cant deal with it at this point is cause...well im incompetent and doing the task of two.

 

Before we go too much further, I do want to stress that there are single pilot aircraft out there that eclipse the workload of what you're seeing right now. I know that's a little subjective, but the regulations are aimed at safety and redundancy for Part 121 operators given the amount of people they move. One can take a King Air 200 out single pilot, legally, and I'd argue that you'd be a lot more saturated there as the AP is more rudimentary, and you don't have AT and FADEC taking care of your engines. The whole "but real crews are crews and not just me" argument against the workload only holds up on the regulatory side of the argument. Given the proper care, it should be manageable.

 

 

 

As far as the ATC coordination stuff goes, it's not so much a phone any more as it's a touch screen (in most facilities I've been in) that routes the conversation through your headset or overhead speakers by your station. APPREQ means "Approval Request" and is related to requesting approval to deviate from an expected procedure. The controller can tap a button on the screen and be routed to any number of pre-set destinations to talk with that controller - in the facility, or an adjacent facility.

 

In your case, the tower controller could call up the TRACON (example only - I'm not a controller for the FAA, so this is rusty knowledge from what I remember when working around them):

Local Control (LC1 - aka "Tower"): "TILLY, Local 1."

Departure (DEP - "TILLY" sector): "TILLY." *

LC1: "APPREQ: Direct CaSaNova. Control to 6000 for AIR123. Pilot workload."

[TILLY verifies airspace is clear and will be clear for the request.]

TILLY: "AIR123 direct CSN, control to 6000, approved. JH." (the JH is made up initials - positions go by a set of initials called OI, or Operating Initials)

LC1: "AM."

 

Tower will then issue the instruction to proceed direct to CSN and climb to 6000 (at IAD, this gives an additional 3000' before you'd have to level off, unless cleared higher by TILLY - both instructions normally reserved for TILLY). Tower would then hand you off later than normal (getting closer to 6000, but ideally earlier).

 

*TILLY is a reference ChanTILLY, a town south of the airport. ASPER is on the north side and is a nod to Ashburn. Other sectors are similarly named, such as RCOLA for Arcola, and BRSTO for Bristow.

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Consider the confines of a flight simulator vs a real airplane. Taking your eyes off the windshield consists of clicking and dragging a mouse, moving and clicking a mouse on a particular area... all of this while having all the senses not available (im at home in an office chair, not in the cockpit). It is not easy.

 

A loss of concentration can lead to falling out of the sky in a plane this complex I think...

 

Your aircraft if properly trimmed will not fall out of the sky if you look away for a few seconds. In fact if properly trimmed you can let go of the yoke for a few seconds and it will have little to no affect. Been simming for a very long time and never had the aircraft fall out of the sky while taking my eyes off for a few seconds. Never had it happen to me in the RW either. I think you are trying to do too much at once. The aircraft has many things on it that make your work load easier. Trimming being the easiest. You aren't running the throttles so when the aircraft is trimmed properly you barely have to put any elevator input in. Tower usually doesn't hand you off on departure right away. They vary in how long until you switch to departure so there is plenty of time. Maybe start with a slower less complex aircraft. You seem to be rushing to control it. The departure is completely known before you take off. They give you take off clearance with either a heading or a RNav departure fix. Preparation on the ground saves you all the time you need when you take off. Most importantly is nobody will ever be harmed if something goes wrong. Every flight from your first until your last should be a learning experience. Experience and confidence is all you are lacking. You will be fine.

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I think thats going to open up a can or worms here.. let me get my popcorn

 

Haha - I don't see anything wrong with it. As long as nobody takes advantage of either side, it's a non-issue. It's true that, without traffic, ATC would not be needed. At the same time, pilots should be mindful that they should not make someone the controller's job unnecessarily difficult (note the 'unnecessarily' - your safety and that of your passengers would classify as 'necessarily' if that's what it came down to - at the same time, don't just pull the safety trump card without reason). Keep in mind that, if a controller believes that you are either going to be difficult, slow to respond, or would otherwise cause issues in the area, he or she may vector you all around to keep the you (the outlier) out of the way of the other aircraft. Obviously, this shouldn't be done maliciously, or to cause difficulty for the pilot, but if you exhibit a tendency to be slow to respond or screw up instructions, you may get pulled out of the sequence and sent into an alternate flow, or to a less desirable runway. This way, you're out of the way of the other flights. That's not a slight. It's simply how things run.

 

Sometimes being an outlier is just part of your operation. Taking the DC-3 into IAD for their airshows is a great example of that. We're usually kept 1000-1500' below the downwind traffic on the STARs, as we're doing about 60-100 knots less than the jets that we would otherwise be mixed in with. Additionally, we also occasionally get stuck over on 19R (when landing south) because it's an overflow runway, and again, our speed is a lot slower than other aircraft on final. Otherwise, we usually get slipped in between arrivals for the other runways.

 

 

The departure is completely known before you take off. They give you take off clearance with either a heading or a RNav departure fix. Preparation on the ground saves you all the time you need when you take off.

 

Bingo.

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Consider the confines of a flight simulator vs a real airplane. Taking your eyes off the windshield consists of clicking and dragging a mouse, moving and clicking a mouse on a particular area... all of this while having all the senses not available (im at home in an office chair, not in the cockpit). It is not easy.

 

A loss of concentration can lead to falling out of the sky in a plane this complex I think...

 

 

 

I would agree with this.

 

 

 

I think thats going to open up a can or worms here.. let me get my popcorn

let it open up a can of worms. I dont understand why pilots think we are flying gor atc's purpose. Last time i checked they control air traffic. If there wasnt air traffic, there wouldnt be anything to control. Therefore, they are here for us and our safety. Yes, we must obide by their instructions, however, we arent here to appease them.

 

Dont take my word for it, married to an enroute controller and being an ATP and currently flying for an airline, I dont know naything at all....

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let it open up a can of worms. I dont understand why pilots think we are flying gor atc's purpose. Last time i checked they control air traffic. If there wasnt air traffic, there wouldnt be anything to control. Therefore, they are here for us and our safety. Yes, we must obide by their instructions, however, we arent here to appease them.

 

Dont take my word for it, married to an enroute controller and being an ATP and currently flying for an airline, I dont know naything at all....

 

It's a side track, but I think it just goes along with how Nick is overloaded with a flaps 15 take-off in the first place. He is simply unfamiliar and unpracticed, nothing more time in the sim won't fix. I'm glad he's asking questions. A lot of my non-aviation friends (if they even know ATC is not the guys with orange wands and high-vis vests on the ramp) think of it as an authority rather than a service. Because I fly out of a Class D that underlies a Class C shelf and adjacent to a rather funky Class B, I often take the opportunity to explain how Air Traffic Control works for us in the VFR world, and how pilots and controllers essentially become a team both trying to accomplish the pilot's goal.

 

Nick,

I suggest just doing the take-off portion over and over again until you get a flow down. Use key commands where you can (G for gear!) and remember to trim! Properly trimmed you should be able to maintain a pitch and vertical speed without touching the yoke. Don't worry about bringing the flaps up right away if you can't reach over, just stay below max flap speed until you have a second to reach over (I use the key commands for this). Dep frequency should be in the STBY of your active COM or in the TX/RX of your COM2, swapping takes seconds. I sometimes use the 2D radio stack by hitting SHIFT+4 if I need to. No shame in that, in the real plane you'd be able to reach down with your right (or left) hand and do the swap. There's a reason the PMDG 777 has a click spot so you don't have to look down. 

 

Lastly, look into FS2Crew. It's rather scripted, but you'll get a sense of how a PNF relieves the workload and how you can still do it all single-pilot if you balance out your tasks. 

 

 

Matt Kramer

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Because I fly out of a Class D that underlies a Class C shelf and adjacent to a rather funky Class B

 

I'm gonna go with NORCAL or SOCAL for that one...HWD or WHP perhaps?

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I think it just goes along with how Nick is overloaded with a flaps 15 take-off in the first place. He is simply unfamiliar and unpracticed, nothing more time in the sim won't fix.

 

This.... I like to save my flight (I use the same saved flight name over and over: _ENR738) after I configured for takeoff and before levers up.  Especially when I am going to fly something like the LOOP DP out of KLAX.  If things get ugly, I'll come back later and load that pre-departure flight and fly it over and over until I am comfortable with my performance. This is an ideal opportunity that the simulation affords. Take advantage of it.

 

I like to save the flight before TOD too, for much the same reason.  A few days ago going into PHOG in the soup I blew it on descent planning, seems that if you don't clean up the legs page to mate the RNP02 approach to the STAR VNAV will end up about 3000 ft higher than desired.  That got reloaded and reflown with much better results.

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I'm gonna go with NORCAL or SOCAL for that one...HWD or WHP perhaps?

 

SOCAL! VNY as it happens, and formerly out of SMO. 

 

This.... I like to save my flight (I use the same saved flight name over and over: _ENR738) after I configured for takeoff and before levers up.  Especially when I am going to fly something like the LOOP DP out of KLAX.  If things get ugly, I'll come back later and load that pre-departure flight and fly it over and over until I am comfortable with my performance. This is an ideal opportunity that the simulation affords. Take advantage of it.

 

I like to save the flight before TOD too, for much the same reason.  A few days ago going into PHOG in the soup I blew it on descent planning, seems that if you don't clean up the legs page to mate the RNP02 approach to the STAR VNAV will end up about 3000 ft higher than desired.  That got reloaded and reflown with much better results.

 

I enjoy the heck out of simulated airline ops, but for sure equally enjoy scenario-based challenges. Fail an engine on V1, fly an LDA down to minimums with a crosswind in the jet, pull off a few touch and goes...

 

Next time you find yourself in that PHOG situation, though, see if you can still make it down by entering a hold. Usually a STAR has a few charted ones. You can also continue the approach and go missed at the final approach fix and sort of "vector" yourself to get setup again. Think of it as "unusual attitude training" but for the sim.

 

Matt Kramer

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and because a flaps 15 takeoff is relatively rare

 

For what it's worth, while flaps 1 and 5 are the most common takeoff settings flaps 15 takeoffs aren't that rare, especially this time of year as the tempratures increase.  Departing 9R from ORD often calls for flaps 15 if you are headed for the west coast.  Takeoffs from KSNA always call for flaps 25.  DCA and LGA will often use 15 or 25 for the transcon flights as you are heavy with fuel.

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Next time you find yourself in that PHOG situation, though, see if you can still make it down by entering a hold.

 

I spotted the problem early enough to be at the right altitude by the time I reached FAF without upsetting the pax, one reason to stay ahead of the airplane.

 

 

 


Takeoffs from KSNA always call for flaps 25.

 

The KSNA-PHOG trip in a B738 is always a challenge. Neither TOPCAT nor TOPPER allow for the TO-B bump thrust, I assume that it might be used often during the summer.

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How is it screwing things up? I'm just curious as to what the frustrations are.


Simple answer is pilot error. I am limited to what I can see on my monitors. Looking down I completely lose everything, basically flying blind. I can't feel what the plane is doing. When I pan and click, I'll have one hand on the wheel, so keeping it in the exact same spot is difficult, slight variation while I'm working somewhere else and the plane is moving where I didn't want it to go, and I have no way of feeling where its going. 

 

As for the overall a few of you guys nailed it here:

 


Nick is overloaded with a flaps 15 take-off in the first place. He is simply unfamiliar and unpracticed, nothing more time in the sim won't fix.


I think I've done maybe 5 flaps 15 takeoffs in the last year and a half, which leads me to this:

 


Maybe start with a slower less complex aircraft.

 

Thats 5 flaps 15 takeoffs over an estimated 300 or so takeoffs since I started in this plane. But you are onto something. Im a relative newbie at VATSIM, only a few months there. Which is why you're seeing questions related to ATC worked in into the NGX forum. Folks very helpful on here, Kyle is a great resource. 

 


Mouse look. Hold down SPACE and then move the mouse around to look around.

 

One hand on the space... one on the mouse... thats 0 hands on the wheel! I have a hard enough time center wheel clicking and looking around with one on the wheel.

 

 

 


Your aircraft if properly trimmed will not fall out of the sky if you look away for a few seconds

 

If I'm deviating on VATSIM you'd think the plane would be better off falling from the sky with some controllers. To their defense though, if you screwed it up as much as I have while learning, I'd be putting alot of people at risk.

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One hand on the space... one on the mouse... thats 0 hands on the wheel! I have a hard enough time center wheel clicking and looking around with one on the wheel.

 

If the aircraft is in trim, that isn't really a problem.

 

I also mapped a button on my mouse to emulate the space bar so I only need one hand, but that shouldn't be a huge issue. If letting go causes you issues, then you're not operating optimally.

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In fact if properly trimmed you can let go of the yoke for a few seconds and it will have little to no affect.


Yes, but an accelerating plane is accelerating out of trim. As I'm seeing it, the flaps 15 takeoff is alot of manual flying till you're cleaned up, then you can turn on the AP. And in the course of that manual flying, I at the very least have to roll the MCP speed up from V2 to above cleanup speed. 

 


Every flight from your first until your last should be a learning experience. Experience and confidence is all you are lacking. You will be fine.


Thank you, thats kinda my mantra. I try to learn every flight and always learn something. 

 


I suggest just doing the take-off portion over and over again until you get a flow down.


Yes, I've pretty much decided for awhile I'll be flying out of Midway on a full plane. Seems those runways are short enough to warrant that flaps 15 most of the time. 

 


Lastly, look into FS2Crew


I thought about it, but what's going on now, and feeling overwhelmed at times, this is what I want. This is why I bought this plane in the first place. Very rewarding and educational. 

 

 


If letting go causes you issues, then you're not operating optimally.

Obviously I have some issues to work out. I'll take everyone advice here (thank you) and get it right.

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Yes, but an accelerating plane is accelerating out of trim. As I'm seeing it, the flaps 15 takeoff is alot of manual flying till you're cleaned up, then you can turn on the AP. And in the course of that manual flying, I at the very least have to roll the MCP speed up from V2 to above cleanup speed. 

 

It will become increasingly out of trim, but if it gets too out of trim in the amount of time it takes you to mouselook down, click, and mouselook back up, there's - again - an issue.

 

I'm not seeing how a Flap 15 takeoff is too difficult, or requiring of much attention.

 

You can't turn on the AP until you're cleaned up?

 

You have to manually set V2 to clean?

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  •  

    You can't turn on the AP until you're cleaned up?

  • Yes according to the procedure I looked up they suggested.
  •  
  • Set the MCP to V2 +15/20.
  • Fly the Flight Director cues to Acceleration Height.
  • At Acceleration Height, push yoke forward reducing pitch.
  • As forward speed increases you will quickly pass through the schedule for initial flap retraction – retract flaps 5.
  • Dial into the MCP speed window the appropriate 'clean up' speed (reference the top bug on the speed tape of the PFD, usually 210-220 kias).
  • Continue to retract flaps as per schedule.
  • After flaps are retracted, engage automation (if wanted) and increase speed to 250 kias or as indicated by Air Traffic Control.

     

    Raises another question, what is the norm for when its time to click on the AP?

     

    Manually set V2 to clean... yes (I think)  if tyou choose to fly manually... what happens is once the flaps start going up, you'll get a A145 (or whatever V2 was) flashing in the MPC. Once the AP goes on then setting the speed isn't an option anymore assuming your also engaging VNAV

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If I'm deviating on VATSIM you'd think the plane would be better off falling from the sky with some controllers. To their defense though, if you screwed it up as much as I have while learning, I'd be putting alot of people at risk.

 

You are putting nobody at risk. Unless you are traveling at better than mach 2 you won't deviate from your course in a matter of seconds. I just departed from LAS a little while ago in the 772. I didn't engage AP until around 8000'. I let go of the yoke for more than 10 seconds more than once while doing something completely unrelated to flying. The aircraft stayed on course and on track for the climb because it is trimmed properly. That's with real world weather through AS16. The world won't end. You just think it will. You need to stay ahead of your aircraft. Don't chase it. It will come with more time. You can't hurt anyone unless you fall out of your chair. In that case you will get hurt. Nobody on VATSIM will. Put "Newbie" in your remarks section of your flightplan. Its not a badge of shame. It helps controllers know you are new so they know you might need more attention/help. We all started some where. I think I kept "Newbie" in my remarks for about 6 months. That was some 14k+ hours ago

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Yes according to the procedure I looked up they suggested.

 

Nope.

 

Note the use of "suggested."

 

 

 


Raises another question, what is the norm for when its time to click on the AP?

 

When the SOP you want to listen to allows it. I usually do it at about 1000' to help manage my workload if I know it's going to be high.

 

 

 


Manually set V2 to clean... yes (I think)  if tyou choose to fly manually... what happens is once the flaps start going up, you'll get a A145 (or whatever V2 was) flashing in the MPC. Once the AP goes on then setting the speed isn't an option anymore assuming your also engaging VNAV

 

Why not just arm VNAV?

(Some operators don't - I get it - but when you aren't subject to the requirements of random people coming up with procedures for procedures, why not write your own?)

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