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Guest keattchr

PMDG 747 vs. Aerowinx PS1 747

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Guest SimulatorPilot

I once read that Aerowinx PS1(http://www.aerowinx.de/) was the best simulation of a 747(systems, aerodynamics, etc) that you could get on a PC. It is even used by NASA acording to their website. Just out o curiosity, I was wondering how does the PMDG 747 compare to PS1 as far as systems/aerodynamics modeling?

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>I once read that Aerowinx PS1(http://www.aerowinx.de/) was>the best simulation of a 747(systems, aerodynamics, etc) that>you could get on a PC. It is even used by NASA acording to>their website. Just out o curiosity, I was wondering how does>the PMDG 747 compare to PS1 as far as systems/aerodynamics>modeling?Extremely close and even closer with the new 1.03 patch we're testing. (I guess I'm biased, but you'll have to trust me!)

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I own both and have been using PS1 for 6 years. I can speak to systems and will say that PMDG includes about 75% of the PSI functionality in this area.In terms of FMC/CDU operations I place it at about 85%. There are more than several entire pages that either dont exist, are less then 50% functional, or display, but do not funtion at all on the PMDG procuct.With that said, since my purchase of the PMDG product I have not utilized my PS1 product. This is because of the exterior environments (scenery) and the VC aspect.

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It was the best for it's time. Not sure about now with PMDG and LDS out there.It does work with FS scenery but not sure how well. I would just buy PMDG or LDS as it is designed to work with FS. I also have Aerowinx 747 and LDS but don't use the Aerowinx anymore. FS is so much easier.JimCYWG

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PMDG I feel is the best here. With a visual environment like Flight Simulator, you can't beat it. I'm hopeful the 1.03 patch will solve most major problem so I can use it but overall it's the best this side of the real aircraft. PS1 is too limited in many areas. Like what was mentioned above you get 95% functionality from the PMDG version concerning avionics and a whole world to fly in thanks to FS9. The VC aspect really gives you the feel of the 744's flight deck which is second to none.I remember back in the days of 2D panels (at least for me) it was an eye opener to discover VC's and the placement of instruments in the cockpit. Instead of clicking a window I had to look up to turn on the APU and look down to tune the radios. I never really realized where everything was at before high quality VCs

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I could not image simming without a VC. Add active camera (panning, head movement, etc) to the equation and you have the perfect settings...RegardsJohn

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Very hard to compare the two .... made for different times, different operating systems, different audiences.I bought PS1.3 a long time ago (it seems anyway) and have flown around the world many many many times and have had years of enjoyment. It was and still is (IMHO) the premier 747-400 simulator if you are looking to learn all the gorey details. Since it is a DOS based app, I can run it on a laptop easily and fly from my recliner in the evening, while relaxing and watching TV with my wife ... a great benefit ... not having to be with my regular sim PC setup in my office ... looking and being antisocial ...hahahahaha you all know what I mean.In addition to the systems fidelity, one of the bigger details PS1.3 implements is most carrier options in terms of "gauge layout" ... at least at the time it was published. Documentation is excellent. It includes redimentary but very effective ATC, weather simulation which reflects "real" weather with added weather software ... the list goes on. Try flying into a CB ... and see whether 1, 2 3 or 4 engines die ... hahahahaha ... happened to me many times when I was less attentive than I should have been.Once you learn the interface and how to taxi ... etc .. it is a pleasure if you really want a immersive experience and want to become intimate with a 747-400. There is a very dedicated group of followers and tinkerers who have added immensely to the product ... weather, taxiways, now a windows interface (WINPS1 by Ivan N.), use of the FS engine for scenery ... the list is very long ... here is a good starting point http://www.aerowinx.de/ when you take the PS1.3 base product, all of the addons and techincal support ... it is really awesome, but not for everyone of course, just the price is daunting ... but imho very well worth it!!!But it's simply not Flight Simulator .. I bought the PMDG 744 on its first day and fly it often ... and of course have immense respect for the people who did the development. It is a very well done, complete sim which adds a whole new dimension to the 744 experience, in comparison to the stock PS1.3 ... that of FS9 ... and all of its addons and such. I have never adopted the VC and really don't like them in any of their incarnations, although I must admit that the LDS and PMDG VCs are tempting as is the new PSS 777 ... I still find them not crisp, and I hate panning around to find things ... so while it may look real, I rather the panels, the panels and the panels, and did I say the panels ... rather like operating the aircraft than looking at it, although I do admit that the ground vehicles for the JCA DC9s and MD80s are pretty cool.Well ... maybe we have an orange to tangerine comparison here, but if you are a 744 lover and have the $$$$$, and want to really do a deep dive into the details, and if you can still find the PS1.3 software ... go for it.Cheers, and

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Guest jgreth123

Paul, One word: TrackIR ;) Panning? What's that? :)

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Guest christianholmes

This a long standing debate- I drooled at the thought of the PMDG plane after flying PS1.3 for a few years.Then I started taking real-life flying lessons again and things changed-I sold PS1.3 and I didn't buy the PMDG plane. Neither one is a real plane. I used to live by the VC because it was "immersive". Now I realize no computer is even 1/100th as "real" as real life. I still love FS, but I have been building a mini deskpit that will allow me to mimick my real life flying. Not so much for the immersion factor, but because turning knobs with a mouse is lame.My point is that my perspective has changed, and I've found the eye candy is completely irrelevant. PS1 has a ton of details that PMDG can't because of the host program. PMDG obviously has some, but they are more related to eye candy because that is what it really has to offer above and beyond PS1.If you just want to play 744 captain, and have no aspirations to fly for real, then the PMDG will probably be the ultimate. I will probably still buy it at some point, maybe when it's cheaper, but definately not until I am a real pilot- I need to focus on flight training.If you want to concentrate on procedures and systems without worrying about about unrealistic ATC, misplaced scenery objects, stupid AI planes, bad frame rates, or any number of inherent FS problems (no fault of PMDG), then go with PS1.Plus the PS1 manual is just awesome.

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>I can speak>to systems and will say that PMDG includes about 75% of the>PSI functionality in this area.Virgin's 744 captain Jon Bunting in his article in PC Pilot recommends this PMDG aircraft to any PS1.3 user as well real-life 744 drivers. So I would guess this "75%" would in fact be significantly higher. He mentiones that PMDG gets many items closer to real life than PS 1.3.Michael J.http://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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>and I hate panning around to find things>But that's the way it is in real life, right? Not everything is laid out infront of you. That's why I love the VC, is gives me a real perspective, and makes me look in the direction of where the button or switch is, just like real life.But good points all around, I guess the VC or to not VC debate will continue forever. If you are lucky enough to have a nice computer, it's an experience I will enjoy and never go back to the 2d panel.

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you have my thoughts concerning this comparision spot on. thanks...I was questioned by Michael above about my "percentages", however unless you have both product, you cannot compare. The offpath descent operation and pages alone probably account for 10% difference between PMDG and PS1. And that is only one of 7 primary pages that are not developed in the PMDG product (I am not even talking about the MX and ACARS pages either)."PS1 has a ton of details that PMDG can't because of the host program"... perfect statement

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Mike,You certainly may be right since I don't have the PS product. But in my opinion there is too much emphasis on FMC and how many pages it includes or doesn't. Many of those missing pages are used during normal operations very infrequently. When I say "systems" I really mean hydraulics, electrics, pneumatics, etc. Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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Guest Darren Howie

The thing that always put me off PS1 was the total lack of visual immersion in the sim.Great for learning engine starts and drills for failures but for flying it just didnt do it for me.Driving real aeroplanes is a "seeing" event that PS1 doesnt have which is its major drawback.Great systems simulator indeed and an excellent information package for those with an interest in the 400.With the update from PMDG i'd say the 400 will be pretty good for the price and also an excellent 400 study sim.Take your pick they are both excellent and have respective goals but right now as the better simulator of flight i'd say the PMDG one has it simply because it gives you more of a replication of flight simply due to the fact it has visuals.IE Try flying a circling approach in PS1.Darren

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Guest christianholmes

>>and I hate panning around to find things>>>>>But that's the way it is in real life, right? Not everything>is laid out infront of you. That's why I love the VC, is gives>me a real perspective, and makes me look in the direction of>where the button or switch is, just like real life.>>But good points all around, I guess the VC or to not VC debate>will continue forever. If you are lucky enough to have a nice>computer, it's an experience I will enjoy and never go back to>the 2d panel.>>>>It is the way it is in real life, and I live by the VC in flight sim- that being said the problem with the VC in flight sim is that without have the actually switches, and having to use your mouse, you find yourself concentrating on tasks that in real life are second nature.Simply put, the VC simulates a person who has his one and only arm attached directly to his nose.In real life, I can lean down and switch fuel tanks and keep flying straight and level without even thinking about it. Or dial in the NAV and OBSs without looking up to see I'm in a 30 bank accidentally. I can look one direction, and still perform tasks with both my hands.VCs are extremely cool, but they make real procedure practice very difficult because you spend time doing things that you shouldn't have to. Don't get me wrong- the 2D pit suffers from the same mouse problem, but to a lesser extent.What I've relegated myself to is flying from the VC, but the hatswitch on my CH yoke "snaps" to views just like the 2D pit. And with my mini pit to be able to perform tasks without the mouse, it will really allow me to concentrate on things I need to.lI definately find the slight movement of the VC during maneuvers gives me feedback that the 2D pit totally lacks.*One gripe about Flight Sim if I may- Why can't anybody make "draggable" knobs? How annoying is it to click-click-click your way to the proper frequency. Especially in a VC with Active Camera, you sometimes find yourself chasing the knob around. I would LOVE to just click and hold, then drag the frequency.And as for "flying" PS1- I do agree that it is tough without visual cues, however in real life most of the flight can be performed under the hood. There are people who do circling approaches- I admit they are hard, but I'm sure with enough practice it would become second nature. There are some videos on the PS1 site of people doing them. I definately find the graphics in flight sim, and complete lack of physical feedback (in any sim) make you a daredevil. I can land a 747 in Flight Sim on a slick runway with a 30 kt crosswind while sucking down a beer, while in real life I need a shower after a few touch and gos in a Warrior. So sometimes I think the visuals give you a false sense of security: I can drop it on the runway even if it's not pretty. If the published approach gets too difficult, just pan around, fly a short final and land anyway- no FAA, airline management, or first officer is going to yell at you: since they don't exist, any landing you walk away from is perfect, no matter how dangerous or poor."The worst mistake is the one that goes unrecognized, uncorrected, and unapologized for."

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>sim is that without have the actually switches, and having to>use your mouse, you find yourself concentrating on tasks that>in real life are second nature.well, it very much depends how you do it. Using VC can be a second nature too and your mosue can be seen as extension of your hand. It all depends whether you invest some minimal amount time in developing profficiency in using VC. And the rest is in your "head" - whether your brain can adjust and give you the right illusion. Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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Guest

There are a few off the top of my head. The Carenado 182 has a cowl flap lever that you can drag up or down. Pretty cool. But yeah the VC is limited, but I can get over that for the real life feeling I get piloting the airplane from it.

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Guest Adverse Yawn

>>*One gripe about Flight Sim if I may- Why can't anybody make >>"draggable" knobs? How annoying is it to click-click-click your way to >>the proper frequency. Especially in a VC with Active Camera, you >>sometimes find yourself chasing the knob around. I would LOVE to just >>click and hold, then drag the frequency.Agreed!! Download the ELITE demo and see how the UI really should be done. I suspect part of the problem is that you need consistent and high framerates to get a smooth and predictable movement. All the drag controls I have seen in FS forget they are being draged after a frame stutter. Pain in the a$$.

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Guest dolb

>>>If you just want to play 744 captain, and have no aspirations to fly >>>for real, then the PMDG will probably be the ultimate.IMO Both are so close unless you 'are' training for real the choice whether to use PS1 or PMDG Should not be based on whether you want to fly 747's one day or not.I seriously hope 2D panels last forever Why I HATE Vc's!1. Frame Rates2. Gauge Refresh Rates3. 'Moving, Panning etc..'

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Guest keattchr

> ... and I hate panning around to find things ...PLEASE run and get TrackIR with the vector expansion - you will change your mind :-)Ray Keattch

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