Sign in to follow this  
Guest tallpilot

Why isn't de-icing a requirement for clearance?

Recommended Posts

With the recent crash involving Dick Ebersol and his family a question has been raised in my mind.Please realize that I have no REAL flight experience, so for you RW pilots please keep this in mind before the flaming begins.In the initial reports, an airport spokesman mentioned that it's the pilots decision to deice or not. My question is, not to lay blame at the pilot's feet, but why is deicing not required when certain weather conditions exist?If I drive into the mountains, often I am told to either put on chains or have approved snow tires. These are not "guidelines" but requirements for me to continue to travel down the road. These requirements are in place because without proper traction devices I pose a significant risk to myself, my passengers, and others on the road.Planes are grounded all the time due to inclement weather. Takeoffs and landings are not allowed if certain weather conditions exist (particularly conditions involving limited visibility).Why then, are pilots allowed to decide on their own when "de-icing" is warranted or not? Shouldn't deicing be a required prerequisite for takeoff should the proper weather conditions exist? If the airport does not have de-icing facilities, then shouldn't traffic be grounded unless they have their own deicing methods on the plane?I am not trying to lay the blame at anyones feet. We don't know why the pilot in the recent crash chose not to deice. We don't know if he made a critical error in judgement, or perhaps, bowed to "pressure" from his passengers to not delay departure for de-icing. Or perhaps there was something else mechanically wrong with the plane. We don't know, and may never know the "full story"The simple fact remains, according to preliminary data, icing most likely played a vital role in this crash. And if that is the case, why do we allow planes clearance to depart, if the conditions for icing clearly exist, and they have not been de-iced.Again, I may be totally ignorant, and many of you may bash me for having such an opinion with no real world experience to speak of. However, as a car driver, I am denied access to certain roads without proper traction devices installed on my vehicle. Why then don't the same rules apply to de-icing an aircraft?The REAL tragedy of most accidents is the fact that in many cases, they could have been avoided in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

I understand what you are saying...however, pilots are in command of the flight. Planes are grounded primarily for 2 reasons when vis is very badit has exceeded the scheduled carriers SOP (charter and private do not fall in this catagory)andthe airport cannot maintain ground operations and thus restricts operations (it is legal for a part 91/121 operator to take off in zero zero vis if the airport is operating - which many smaller ones do in limit vis).

Share this post


Link to post

It is a requirement. Even for operations under Part 91, no pilot may take off an airplane that has frost, snow, or ice adhering to any propeller, windshield, or powerplant installation or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system; Snow or ice adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces; or Any frost adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces, unless that frost has been polished to make it smooth. (91.527)So, if anybody decides to attempt a takeoff in contravention to those requirements, then it is an illegal takeoff, even for private pilots. However, there is not going to be some of kind of police guy walking around the airport that is going to stop people from taking off because of this rule. It just would not be feasible. The pilot is supposed to know the rules and behave accordingly. If you hire a cop for this rule, where will it end, will you have cops looking over everybody's flightplan and making sure that the weather is good enough for them, or that they have adequate fuel, or that the plane has complied with all its ADs, etc., before each takeoff? Not going to happen. This is why they pay pilots the big bucks.

Share this post


Link to post

Further to Mike's post, I've seen Part 91 flights depart (instrument flights) in 1/8 sm and VV00. Very stupid, as you have no way of getting back down to land if you need to. But, the PIC is the "final authority" as to the operation of the flight. It's a bit like the captain of a ship who can do anything he/she wishes on the ship, and is virtually the law for all intents and purposes. Airplane pilots (at least those who are PIC, if more than 1 pilot is on board) have this same authority (which is why we are usually pragmatic "control frieks" :) ).This doesn't make all decisions that pilots make correct (obviously). If the original poster wants to read some real wild stuff, subscribe to "Aviation Safety" (a must for all real pilots in my opinion), and see just how stupid some people really are.Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

Maybe we first WAIT for authorities to make definite correlation between icing and this tragedy at Montrose airport before making authoritive statements what pilots should have done in this case. At the moment all mentions of icing in this case are pure journalistic speculations.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

Share this post


Link to post

I agree, that publication has some useful information in it. Some of the decisions made by some pilots are, quite frankly, wreckless. A friend of a friend was a survivor in a fatal incident in Tennesee in which his instructor and another student (they were doing a paired lesson where one flies one leg, the other switches for the second leg) decided to take off after landing due to gear malfunction and decided to return even after finding that the engine died when on one mag durring their run-up. They made 50 ft and ended up in a barn, killing both up front. The motivating factor was most likely the urge to just get home since they were away from home base by quite a ways.In any case, most incidents are due to a rather long chain of errors that add up to become one large error. Perhaps you're off heading by 5 degrees and never feel the need to change it, now 3 hours later you're 20 miles off course. Fuel is low now but you really want to get to your destination, so you turn in a heading you think will get you there, you still don't see the airport and the fuel gauges are close to the "E", but you really want to get to your destination and keep flying, now you're out of fuel and forced to make a landing. In an attempt to avoid a forced landing in a field because you feel uncomfortable with landing on a soft surface, you aim for a road that is beyond gliding range, but figure maybe you can squeeze some extra distance out of it. You stall the plane out of the air at 100 feet above the ground before you reach the road.There are many reports published by the National Transportation Saftey Board that read like this. Anywhere along that path, something could have been done to correct the problem. The heading could have been corrected, they could have asked ATC for vectors, they could have landed at another field for fuel, etc. The urge to "get there" is not an unrealistic cause of accidents and is often found as a contributing factor in incidents like this. Pilots refer to it as get-home-itis. It has lead to quite a few scud running incidents as well where you try and fly VFR under a continually desending ceiling often fixating so heavily on how low you are under the clouds that you don't even realise own low you're getting to the ground.The FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook lists the 5 Hazardous Attitudes a pilot can have.Antiauthority: Not wanting to follow the rules for safteyImpulsivity: Acting immediately without any thought as to whether it will help or hinder the situationInvulnerability: Belief that nothing bad could ever possibly happen, that only other people get in accidentsMacho: Over confidance in abilities, usually in an attempt to impress someone on the ground or in the aircraftResignation: Belief that nothing one can do can fix the situation, an overall sense of hopelessness.In an emergency situation there are a few more factors as well. These are a "reluctance to accept the situation", a "desire to save the aircraft", and an "undue concern about getting hurt".As you can see there are so many contributing factors to any incident, it's hard to ever point to one as the reason for it. All you can really point to is the one that was the last mistake. It is useful, however, to look at these kind of reports as the errors others have made can add to our personal experience. Yes, it is tragic when someone loses their life due to one of these incidents, but as the saying goes, "Learn from the mistakes of others for you may not live to learn from all of your own."----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

Share this post


Link to post

>Why then, are pilots allowed to decide on their own when>"de-icing" is warranted or not? Pilots are also required to have enough fuel when taking off (there are many more accidents a year due to not having enough fuel than because of icing). Pilots are also required to have aircraft properly loaded and within limits. Pilots are also required to check weather, NOTAM's ... Pilots are also required ... list is very long. How many tens of thousands airport 'cops' would it take to police airports 7/24 apart from how utterly ridiculous it would look.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

Share this post


Link to post

Correct, the only fact is that we know they refused de-icing, as to whether icing is to blame, we don't know. I do believe the interest in why a pilot would refuse de-icing is valid enough for a discussion though. So I hope this discussion focuses on his question of "Why isn't de-icing a requirement for clearance?" and doesn't go on to discuss the incident since it has no bearing on answering his question. It's a good learning experience for those in aviation and those looking into aviation in the real world to gain some incite into the regulatory and non-regulatory forces that affect a pilot's decision to make or refuse a flight. If it stays in those realms, I feel this will be a great topic.----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

Share this post


Link to post

Good Points.Take a look here, and type in whatever scenarios you like, and look at the accidents.http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.aspFuel Starvation is a larger problem than deicing is, but not as much as flight into terrain is.How about mandating terrain warning systems in all planes, and parachutes too.In other words, you can't regulate every single possibility of accidents every time an aircraft goes down.Look at automobiles. How many died last year from drunk drivers compared to airplane accidents.Flying just like driving contains inherent risks.That is why they call them accidents.Regards,Joe

Share this post


Link to post

JoeI agree :-) It is the captain of the aircrafts responsability to make sure that the aircraft is "fit" for flight.That is why he does a walkaround a preflight check and runs through a whole series of checks to make sure all the systems are functioning correctly.One of those checks is to make sure that the aircraft is "free" of ice.Another is to check that he has sufficient fuel for the flight with the required reserves.Regarding another comment re very poor vis/cloud base takeoffs, this is not quite as bad as it may appear.As long as he can clearly see the runway centreline and lights to accelerate to VR and beyond he is literally IMC soon after takeoff.Lets look at a takeoff with approach minima, say o/c 200 with 550 metres vis for the ILS.Should he have a problem after takeoff like an engine failure he is literally in the same boat (plane :-) as the near zero/zero takeoff pilot.Ok he may have a couple of seconds more where he can see some terrain in 550 metre vis and theoretically he could fly back for an ILS Minima landing but he may be better advised to secure the situation and divert to an airfield with better weather rather than attempting all the turns back to a minima landing on one engine.Hence on multi engine aircraft especially with aircraft with good single engine performance a near zero/zero departure is not that different to a departure with ILS Minima.Someone taking off in a single or even a poor peformance twin is taking a risk in takeoffs with return minima or for that matter at night. They are playing russian roulette.Infact you could more question the advisability of any departure in a single where there is insufficient visibility or clear air below the clouds to carry out a visual forced landing in event of an engine failure.Peter

Share this post


Link to post

>Further to Mike's post, I've seen Part 91 flights depart (instrument flights) in 1/8 sm and VV00. Very stupid, as you have no way of getting back down to land if you need to. But, the PIC is the "final authority" as to the operation of the flight. It's a bit like the captain of a ship who can do anything he/she wishes on the ship, and is virtually the law for all intents and purposes. Airplane pilots (at least those who are PIC, if more than 1 pilot is on board) have this same authority (which is why we are usually pragmatic "control frieks" ).

Share this post


Link to post

And even then there's always plain old bad luck.You make sure your aircraft is clean before taxiing out, then you get hit by some rain or spray on the way to the runway.Just after taking off you pass through a layer of cold air, that water freezes inside your pitot and flight control actuators, and you crash.Maybe an unlikely chain of events but anything that's not actually impossible is bound to happen at some point...

Share this post


Link to post

No Peter,This was a Class Delta airport (KBJC, my own airport), with the tower fully operational. Part 91, several flights in succession. I asked my CFII (as we had wisely decided NOT to fly) why the published take-off minimums were not applicable, although I did recall from my own FAA theory workshops that take-off minimums are not applicable to Part 91. That was the reason alright. We also saw a G5 depart in Part 91 on the same day, same wx.I'll go check your other post, although I know that you and I have found on several occasions, instances were the aviation rules governing instrument flight in the UK and the US are so different, we might almost be living on different planets ! :)Thanks, Bruce.Edit: I looked at your other post. Here in the US, not all airports have RVR measuring equipment (the large ones all do, I believe). So, vis minimums are given in "sm" (statute miles). In this case, as I recall, it was 1/8sm vis in mist, although the IAP gives ILS Cat A minimums as 1/2 sm / 200' (we had 00VV that day too). Do all towered airports in the UK have RVR? I'm not even sure if taking off here in minimums below RVR for Part 91 is illegal, this was certainly not discussed in my IR theory as an exception to the "Part 91 no take-off minumums rule". But I do agree that one would need to be really dumb to do so. :)You must find a way to get to the Denver area, Peter. I would love to take you up and we could go have some fun. :)Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

>Further to Mike's post, I've seen Part 91 flights depart>(instrument flights) in 1/8 sm and VV00. Very stupid, as you>have no way of getting back down to land if you need to. No, I disagree. Most, if not all operators that allow departures with wx below approach mins require a departure alternate...a field close by with weather suitable for approach and landing if something goes wrong. I've seen plenty of V1 cuts in the sim that required me to fly an engine-out IFR departure to an engine-out IFR approach at another field. It's not stupid...it's a calculated risk that a properly-trained crew should be prepared for.>But, the PIC is the "final authority" as to the operation of the>flight. It's a bit like the captain of a ship who can do>anything he/she wishes on the ship, and is virtually the law>for all intents and purposes. Airplane pilots (at least those>who are PIC, if more than 1 pilot is on board) have this same>authority (which is why we are usually pragmatic "control>frieks" :) ).In an antiseptic world, this might be true. But in business aviation, in particular, when the guy who signs your paycheck wants to go-go-go it's pretty hard for the PIC to just say no-no-no. It's a common source of stress for corporate crews, as they get to deal with such challenges as travelers that show up with more pax than there are crash-certed seats, traveling partties intent on overloading the aircraft, or grueling itineraries that would be enough to wear out two crews. Forces some tough choices...tell the boss "no" and start working on your resume, or suck it up and take the risk. Happens every day in the real world. CheersBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC

Share this post


Link to post

According to FAR 91.175 (f) "Civil airport takeoff minimums. Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no pilot operating an aircraft under parts 121, 125, 129, or 135 of this chapter may take off from a civil airport under IFR unless weather conditions are at or above the weather minimum for IFR takeoff prescribed for that airport under part 97 of this chapter. If takeoff minimums are not prescribed under part 97 of this chapter for a particular airport, the following minimums apply to takeoffs under IFR for aircraft operating under those parts:"If you are flying under Part 91, you can legally take off from any airport in any visibility. However, as stated in the same regualtion under part (d) it states that "no pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, may land that aircraft when

Share this post


Link to post

> but you>couldn't legally land back down at the airport if you had a>problem.John,Check again the refs. There is no such thing as "illegal landing" due to bad weather when you fly Part 91. This is what distinguishes Part 91 from other operations. For others it may be illegal to even attempt to approach/land but for part 91 it is perfectly legal to try an approach and whether you miss or not it is another story. You can be very lucky and get a sudden break in the fog and all is perfectly legal (for part 91).Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

Share this post


Link to post

>Correct, the only fact is that we know they refused de-icing,>as to whether icing is to blame, we don't know. I do believe>the interest in why a pilot would refuse de-icing is valid>enough for a discussion though. So I hope this discussion>focuses on his question of "Why isn't de-icing a requirement>for clearance?" and doesn't go on to discuss the incident>since it has no bearing on answering his question. It's a good>learning experience for those in aviation and those looking>into aviation in the real world to gain some incite into the>regulatory and non-regulatory forces that affect a pilot's>decision to make or refuse a flight. If it stays in those>realms, I feel this will be a great topic.>>---------------------------------------------------------------->John S. Morgan>Real World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private>130+ hrs.Hello John,Actually we don't know that the Captain 'refused' de-icing. Was the Captain offered de-icing in the first place? Myself, as a ground engineer properly trained in aircraft anti-icing and de-icing, am able to dictate to the aircrew whether they de-ice or not based on conditions and experience. The aircraft Captain cannot overide this decision.De/Anti-icing is not manditory for clearance due to several factors. Lets say you have an aircraft in a hangar that is warm and then moved outside into a snow storm with temperatures well into freezing (cold dry snow). Needless to say, you will have to deice this aircraft before departure as the snow will melt and then freeze on the warm aircraft. In the same storm, you have an aircraft land that has been cruising at high altitudes and is cold soaked. After landing, it is very cold and is refueled with a fuel truck that is similarily cold. The dry snow will not adhere to the cold aircraft and on a short turn the best decision would be to sweep the aircraft of the dry snow as adding warm de-ice fluid in this situation would make things worse. There are several more examples but in the end de/anti-icing training is manditory (at least in Canada) for aircrew as well as maintenance and is taken very seriously.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 and Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanic

Share this post


Link to post

Under Part 91, you may not land if flight visibility below the minimums, but you sure may attempt the approach. However, if you takeoff in thick fog below the flight visibility requirements that you'd need to land back at the airport, you're S.O.L. I would not personally take off in bad weather if I felt I could not legally land back at the airport if I had to. There isn't a maximum number of missed approaches either, but the common rule at our flight school and most others is 3 attempts then go to your alternate, or divert if you hadn't filed one. Otherwise some are tempted to continue trying to approach hoping each time maybe they'll break through and possible run themselves too low to make an alternate airport.----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

Share this post


Link to post

>Under Part 91, you may not land if flight visibility below>the minimums, but you sure may attempt the approach.John,Don't you realize the above sentence is utterly meaningless? If I may attempt approach and if upon reaching either MDA or DH I can see the runway then I may land. There is no such thing as "allowed to approach" but "not allowed to land".Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

Share this post


Link to post

MichaelOver here in Europe it is illegal to even attempt an approach if the RVR is below the published minima.Infact i know of a pilot who took an approach in a N reg aircraft where the RVR was given as 200 metres in the UK.This was a privately owned twin and he decided to have a look as there was a pool of fog over the airfield but all around there was 30k vis.On coming onto final approach he realised the the touchdown area of the runway and numbers was now sticking out of the fog and in clear air so he continued to a visual landing.After touching down the aircraft soon entered the fog part of the runway.The departure RVR minima was quoted as 200 metres so his roll out in the 200 metre vis section had vis acceptable for ground operations.He was fined the equivalent of $ 3000 by the CAA I think the regs say that once on the approach if the RVR drops to below minima you can continue the approach but you cannot commence an approach if the RVR is reported as below minima at the start.Obviously this was an FAA aircraft in a foreign state and as such the rules of that state predominate.Here RVR is limiting cloudbase is not.Peter

Share this post


Link to post

>Over here in Europe it is illegal to even attempt an approach>if the RVR is below the published minima.Yeah, in the US there is similar limitation but it only applies to Part 121 and 135 - in other words air taxi, charters, for hire and airline operations. I don't think it even apllies to fractional jets which at this moment (unless something changed recently) are flying according to Part 91.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

Share this post


Link to post

JohnI have made departures in fog but always do so with various conditions in mind.Firstly I would not consider such an action in a single and question the sensibility of singles in any operation where an engine failure would not allow sufficient vis and cloudbase to manouvre for a visual forced landing.Second I would not do such a departure in any twin which could not give 400 fpm climb on one engine or was at an airfield surrounded by high ground.So if it was a lighter twin I would not go unless the twin was below grosse weight and in cold air.Third I would only depart if there was an alternative which was clear within 60 nm of my departure.In such a departure you have to accept that you are not coming back if there is a problem. Going somewhere else is often the better option even if the conditions would allow A minima ILS return.The other point to consider with an engine failure in a light twin is whether the aircraft can meet the required missed approach profiles to safely fly round to an ILS without hitting terrain?Peter

Share this post


Link to post

Just some thoughts to add to the mix here..In this case WHAT clearance ?? Radar view and radio out of Denver ?Went to look at info on this facility when I heard the TV news of the crash (as I do most times)I see the shotest RWY is about 7500ft and the longest at 10,000, first thought I had was, seems long enough to stop after aborting a takeoff for whatever reason. (agreed there are many variables to consider)What's the normal takoff roll for the Bombardier Challenger CL-602 at their weight and airport altitude (5,759 ft)? Can't seem to find much info on that aircraft..Also, I see even though they have two major passenger airlines fly in and out of KMTJ (one full time and one added in summer) they operate with only a UNICOM radio freq and have no control tower. My thoughts on de-icing of private aircraft at KMTJ (agreed it's the pilot in command that has the responsibility) wouldn't you have to arrange and pay for such a service BEFORE you even taxied out in the case of just a layover at such an airport?I mean, without a tower or ground freq to call for last minute de-icing and most likely without an account with the airport to charge it to... how would it work ? Sounds like they DO keep de-icing equipment there.. is it a private business you need to call? I'd think that any of these airports up high in CO would require this equipment for full operation.. No answers... just questions.

Share this post


Link to post

Hello Peter,I don't know what your feelings are, but I can't help but wonder how much the passengers/customers desires (pressure) had on the Pilot In Commands actions that led to an accident. As an example the overloaded plane in the Islands with the female Pop Singer. The Sen. Wellstone crash during a vor appr during icing condition when 15 miles away was another airport with a longer runway and a full ILS. Now the Ebersol crash and the list goes on. I've always tried to teach the new Captains that I was training that the ultimate decisions that need to be made are theirs alone. Cockpit resourse management means you get all the information you can from all sources available to you, but the final decision or course of action is yours and that outside pressures such as scheduling requirements,passenger demands or people on the ground that don't know your situation as well as you do should not be allowed to affect those decisions.Regards,Ed Weber a.k.a. tallpilot

Share this post


Link to post

EdProbably part of the problem is that people use corporate aircraft because they do go into places where the scheduled airliners do not go.This entails a certain amount of "creative flying" and often involves light twins which operate down in the worst weather unlike the Citation Bravo which I am currently flying.This is different to leasure flying where you look out of the window and go back to sleep if the weather isnt what you want it to be.This type of flying involves getting up in the dark to pouring rain and knowing you have to be somewhere in Scotland by 8 am in the middle of winter.The best way to loose a customer is to scare the hell out of them.Whether its a light twin or a larger aircraft the aim is to make the flight as comfortable, smooth and efficient as possible meeting the schedules on the dot.That is the satisfaction. There is a self induced pressure not to show up the service as "time to spare go by air" as that rather detroys the whole object of corporate travel and the quickest way of loosing customers.On the flip side I feel there is a terrific responsability to the people you carry and they deserve to have as safe a trip as possible.Therefore the captain is always waying up all the odds and uses all his previous experience.There are times when all the pieces dont add up and an alarm bell rings risk.That is the time to say NO.Flying is all about risk management. I could theoretically takeoff in my two year old all bells and whistles Citation Bravo into a 200 foot overcast and take a pair of geese running from the Christmas dinner table into each engine.Unlikey but the risk is there. I am sure you remember the Graham Hill crash years ago where the pilot was open to get home itis and attempted to land at his home airfield in Fog.He mistook a line of traffic lights and crashed killing all on board.Yet only a few miles away was a clear airport.We are aware of our vulnerability and like to feel that any crash was an accident waiting to happen which wouldnt occur to us.I have lost four friends in aviation of those one was an ex Fawklands war navigator and the other early this year a very close friend and examiner with 18000 hours, a lot of Atlantic ferry work. He was a guy who could smell the ice in clouds and had flown to every corner of the globe yet he was killed in a Cessna 310 only a handful of miles from his home airfield.When such an accident happens to someone you so admire and respect it really makes you think.Peter

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this