Sky Prince

Calling all Pilots - tutorial - I also have a problem

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Good morning, 

Please setup a short tutorial flight (FULL) with the PMDG 747-400 QOTS ii using the standard operation procedures, but using the default ATC platform to support the entire flight.

Show how you startup from departure until arrival at destination airport, also including complete shutdown of the aircraft upon arrival, all done flying with default ATC alone.

PS: IS THERE ANY RULES ON HERE FORBIDDING TO OFFER PAYMENT TO ANYONE WHO MEETS A PARTICULAR REQUIREMENT?  IF WE CAN AGREE THAT THE TUTORIAL IS ACCEPTABLE I WOULD MAKE A SMALL DONATION IN GBT (£) (YOU WOULD NOT RELEASE THE TUTORIAL TO ME UNTIL DONATION RECEIVED). YOU COULD ALSO POST THAT TUTORIAL VIA THE APPROPRIATE MEDIA SUCH AS YOUTUBE SO OTHERS CAN LEARN FROM IT (UP TO YOU).

Where appropriate from startup until shutdown, please use very brief description of why you are, for example, turning on the APU, or why the NAV lights are required, etc. BRIEFLY. Thorough explanations are not necessary since they are already available in multiple PFD format. 

I have completed a full flight CYVR-EDDF but with FsPassengers rule, so my SOP is a little different.

PROBLEM:

My FSX would suddenly lag (dropping from around 50 FPS to less than 3). The sound would then become distorted, buzzing, static, stuttering, if I could describe it. Why is this happening?

My system windows 10 (C;) has 750 GB free.

Core (TM) i7-4700MQ CPU @ 2.40 GHZ RAM 12 GB

HICCUP: I ACCIDENTALLY POSTED IN THE WRONG FORUM. PLEASE MOVE.

Edited by Sky Prince

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1 hour ago, Sky Prince said:

Please setup a short tutorial flight (FULL) with the PMDG 747-400 QOTS ii using the standard operation procedures, but using the default ATC platform to support the entire flight.

Show how you startup from departure until arrival at destination airport, also including complete shutdown of the aircraft upon arrival, all done flying with default ATC alone.

PS: IS THERE ANY RULES ON HERE FORBIDDING TO OFFER PAYMENT TO ANYONE WHO MEETS A PARTICULAR REQUIREMENT?  IF WE CAN AGREE THAT THE TUTORIAL IS ACCEPTABLE I WOULD MAKE A SMALL DONATION IN GBT (£) (YOU WOULD NOT RELEASE THE TUTORIAL TO ME UNTIL DONATION RECEIVED). YOU COULD ALSO POST THAT TUTORIAL VIA THE APPROPRIATE MEDIA SUCH AS YOUTUBE SO OTHERS CAN LEARN FROM IT (UP TO YOU).

All of this is provided - for free - with the aircraft. I don't see anything that you've requested that is missing with the exception of default ATC, which is neither aware of SIDs/STARs, nor is it any good (two of the many reasons to avoid it). The only true difference is that the startup procedure from cold and dark is at the end of the document (as mentioned before - we wanted to make sure those who wanted to get up and out could do so quickly without having to do the full startup on their first flight).

I know I've said this before, but I will stress this point again: please take a moment to take stock in the resources we've provided. You're certainly welcome to do what you wish with your own money, but I think you'll find what we've provided (included in the cost of the software) to be more than sufficient...provided you take the time to read it.

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1 hour ago, Sky Prince said:

Please setup a short tutorial flight (FULL) with the PMDG 747-400 QOTS ii using the standard operation procedures, but using the default ATC platform to support the entire flight.

Show how you startup from departure until arrival at destination airport, also including complete shutdown of the aircraft upon arrival, all done flying with default ATC alone.

The problem with this is that the default ATC will NOT take SIDs and STARs into consideration. Once you get close enough to the airport, it's going to start vectoring you around all over the place, rendering the rest of the flight plan you put into the FMC completely useless. It also wouldn't vector you the same places each time, therefore making the whole thing inconsistent for a tutorial. You wouldn't be able to account for every possible scenario.

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1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

All of this is provided - for free - with the aircraft. I don't see anything that you've requested that is missing with the exception of default ATC, which is neither aware of SIDs/STARs, nor is it any good (two of the many reasons to avoid it). The only true difference is that the startup procedure from cold and dark is at the end of the document (as mentioned before - we wanted to make sure those who wanted to get up and out could do so quickly without having to do the full startup on their first flight).

I know I've said this before, but I will stress this point again: please take a moment to take stock in the resources we've provided. You're certainly welcome to do what you wish with your own money, but I think you'll find what we've provided (included in the cost of the software) to be more than sufficient...provided you take the time to read it.

Yeeesss! I know (covers face). 🙈 I have gone through most of the readings already. All I wanted to see was how somebody would fly with it using the default ATC platform, if any different from how I would.

Doing something like this takes time, which is why I offered to donate; my way of saying thanks.

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1 hour ago, Captain Kevin said:

The problem with this is that the default ATC will NOT take SIDs and STARs into consideration. Once you get close enough to the airport, it's going to start vectoring you around all over the place, rendering the rest of the flight plan you put into the FMC completely useless. It also wouldn't vector you the same places each time, therefore making the whole thing inconsistent for a tutorial. You wouldn't be able to account for every possible scenario.

This is exactly why I requested the tutorial, to show how you would fly with the default ATC knowing its limitation. 

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2 minutes ago, Sky Prince said:

All I wanted to see was how somebody would fly with it using the default ATC platform,

Sorry, I wouldn't do that for money.  Seriously, don't use it.  There are fans of two commercially available ATC simulators around here, and in the P3D forum next door.  If you are a non-pilot, you will find these interesting.

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Hi,

I usually fly with default ATC, and it is (kind of) possible to fly SIDs and STARs. SIDs are easy if you use the latest version of PFPX to plan your flights. In the flightplan file the SID waypoints are added, so ATC won't bother you after takeoff. 

STARs are a bit more difficult, as it requires some changes to the airport AFCAD file. With a program like ADE you can add approaches. In the ATC window you can then choose either vectors for the (ILS-) approach or an initial approach FIX (IAF). ATC will then give you one vector to the IAF (which you can ignore if it doesn't suit you) and when you are near the IAF you get the clearance to the ILS. Until you are established on the ILS ATC won't bother you again.

You can also just fly your STAR and ignore the ATC instructions, but the can "controller" get a bit annoying...

 

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12 minutes ago, Sky Prince said:

This is exactly why I requested the tutorial, to show how you would fly with the default ATC knowing its limitation. 

Consider for a moment that there's a very good reason that we left default ATC out of the equation entirely. As I mentioned earlier, one of the reasons is that it's awful. Another reason is that it is completely unaware of realistic routing. Yet another reason is that it is unaware of the fact that fixes have been added/changed over the years.

The goals of our aircraft and the goals of default ATC are entirely opposing. If you're flying our aircraft the way it's supposed to be flown, you are going to cause the (entirely unrealistic) default ATC to flip out. If you're flying as the default ATC directs, you won't be flying out aircraft properly.

If you want ATC, the only thing I'd personally recommend is something like IVAO and/or VATSIM, and even those aren't the greatest. All the same, they're hundreds of times better than default, or even add-on ATC programs. Heck, I'd recommend simply loading up LiveATC.com and listening to the streaming audio over using the default ATC. It is literally just - that - awful. It'll also introduce you to a bunch of bad habits...not the least of which are:

  • Requesting clearance "as filed."
    As opposed to...requesting clearance via drawing a route drawn out of a hat?
    "[Facility ID], Airline 123, requesting clearance with [ATIS ID]."
  • Requesting taxi "VFR" or "IFR."
    It's technically in one of the examples in the AIM, but you really won't hear it in the wild. It's pretty superfluous to a controller.
    "[Facility ID], Airline 123, requesting taxi from [location] to [location]."
  • Using "with you."
    Check in on frequency with "[Facility ID], Airline 123, [current altitude]" (or if climbing descending, "[current altitude], for [assigned altitude]").
  • Thinking you're going to land into the wind all the time, and/or getting the ILS much of the time.
  • Trusting the "vectors" that it puts you on (instead of your SID/STAR). Vectors in the real world are (usually) pretty efficient.

I'm sure there are more, and it probably sounds like I have a personal vendetta against it, but the truth is that it hinders your experience more than enhancing it...particularly when you have a realistic add-on of an airliner.

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FSX ATC coordinates AI traffic within the sim, places you within it, and before descent will advise your descent and brings you into a location for a 90/60/30 approach to the active runway and positions you for the 30 to catch the ILS. 30 degrees avoids slalom through AP latency. There's no SID/STAR information in the sim although the waypoints are there so make plans between the major waypoints on the SID/STARs corresponding to the approach/departure you may need depending on the weather. Don't be fooled into thinking it's a real ATC program. Think of it as a simple program operating the AI within the sim and guiding you to a location for that standard 90/60/30 approach. By the way, the active runway is chosen by ATC with a sensitive and complicated mechanism that depends on the weather and other factors.

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2 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

Consider for a moment that there's a very good reason that we left default ATC out of the equation entirely. As I mentioned earlier, one of the reasons is that it's awful. Another reason is that it is completely unaware of realistic routing. Yet another reason is that it is unaware of the fact that fixes have been added/changed over the years.

The goals of our aircraft and the goals of default ATC are entirely opposing. If you're flying our aircraft the way it's supposed to be flown, you are going to cause the (entirely unrealistic) default ATC to flip out. If you're flying as the default ATC directs, you won't be flying out aircraft properly.

If you want ATC, the only thing I'd personally recommend is something like IVAO and/or VATSIM, and even those aren't the greatest. All the same, they're hundreds of times better than default, or even add-on ATC programs. Heck, I'd recommend simply loading up LiveATC.com and listening to the streaming audio over using the default ATC. It is literally just - that - awful. It'll also introduce you to a bunch of bad habits...not the least of which are:

  • Requesting clearance "as filed."
    As opposed to...requesting clearance via drawing a route drawn out of a hat?
    "[Facility ID], Airline 123, requesting clearance with [ATIS ID]."
  • Requesting taxi "VFR" or "IFR."
    It's technically in one of the examples in the AIM, but you really won't hear it in the wild. It's pretty superfluous to a controller.
    "[Facility ID], Airline 123, requesting taxi from [location] to [location]."
  • Using "with you."
    Check in on frequency with "[Facility ID], Airline 123, [current altitude]" (or if climbing descending, "[current altitude], for [assigned altitude]").
  • Thinking you're going to land into the wind all the time, and/or getting the ILS much of the time.
  • Trusting the "vectors" that it puts you on (instead of your SID/STAR). Vectors in the real world are (usually) pretty efficient.

I'm sure there are more, and it probably sounds like I have a personal vendetta against it, but the truth is that it hinders your experience more than enhancing it...particularly when you have a realistic add-on of an airliner.

I understand what you're saying. 

A couple of things:

1. Flying without ATC increases the chance of collision with other traffics around me.

2. I have Pro ATC X but never use it because it doesn't sense the traffic around me.

The result of these two often sees me restarting my sim because of accidents, being caught in traffic I cannot see.

I'm not interested in stuff like Vatsim. I can't commit.

I'll admit to the opportunity of flying both realistic and unrealistic. Regardless, it's flying. It is operating a PMDG product. 

I think it would be good if PMDG actually came up with an idea to replace the default ATC programme with SIDS and STARS, amongst many other things. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sky Prince said:

1. Flying without ATC increases the chance of collision with other traffics around me.

2. I have Pro ATC X but never use it because it doesn't sense the traffic around me.

The result of these two often sees me restarting my sim because of accidents, being caught in traffic I cannot see.

Turn off collisions and reduce traffic. Use TCAS to help avoid. The crash detection in the sim is awful.

5 minutes ago, Sky Prince said:

I'll admit to the opportunity of flying both realistic and unrealistic. Regardless, it's flying. It is operating a PMDG product. 

Then by your own admission, you're asking someone to marry two incompatible functions: the default ATC does not provide for a reasonable approximation of reality; our planes are meant to provide a reasonable approximation of reality. Those two cannot effectively mix without massive compromises.

In other words, you're going to sacrifice a lot of the realism we've added in, simply to bend your sim sessions to fit into the awful version of "ATC" that the sim provides. Sure, one can export an extra copy of the flight plan in FSX format, but what happens if the wind changes and you have to change your STAR?

8 minutes ago, Sky Prince said:

I think it would be good if PMDG actually came up with an idea to replace the default ATC programme with SIDS and STARS, amongst many other things. 

That's not exactly in our realm of expertise, and changing the default functions of the sim isn't really possible. You can side-step them, but changing the default behaviors of the sim would be massively time consuming if not impossible. If changing sim defaults for 3rd party devs were possible, FSX and P3D would be a lot better than they are now, honestly. Moreover, there's a reason why pilots are still in the front of airplanes, and controllers in control facilities: computers are awful at both jobs, particularly the latter.

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FWIW

Vatsim for ATC.

Its a little intimidating at first, but just like learning these PMDG planes, stick with it and in the end its very rewarding. And free. And live, and up to date. 

 

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5 hours ago, Sky Prince said:

This is exactly why I requested the tutorial, to show how you would fly with the default ATC knowing its limitation. 

So....you want an inconsistent and unrealistic tutorial? What good would that do. The point of the tutorial is to understand the procedures of how things work, and if you look at the tutorial that came with the plane, you will notice that the flight takes place in calm winds for consistency. With default ATC, there IS NO consistency. One day, it might tell you to approach the airport one way, the next day, it might tell you to approach that same runway a different way. How do you come up with a tutorial to account for that.

Pop quiz: If you were running World of AI at 100% (I assume that's what you're using, right?), how much taxi fuel do you need at Chicago O'Hare to account for holding on the ground.

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24 minutes ago, Captain Kevin said:

Pop quiz: If you were running World of AI at 100% (I assume that's what you're using, right?), how much taxi fuel do you need at Chicago O'Hare to account for holding on the ground.

Wouldn't you just set calm conditions throughout the entire tutorial? 

If I understand the direction of your pop quiz, I'd guess requesting to refuel because of holding up to a long time.

I use UT2.

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40 minutes ago, Sky Prince said:

Wouldn't you just set calm conditions throughout the entire tutorial? 

Yes, that's the whole point. You want to create a tutorial with known variables. Default ATC is always going to give you unknown variables that you can't take into consideration.

41 minutes ago, Sky Prince said:

If I understand the direction of your pop quiz, I'd guess requesting to refuel because of holding up to a long time.

I use UT2.

World of AI, Ultimate Traffic, not really relevant. The main point being that with AI at 100%, you'd have too many unknown variables that would take place that it would be impossible to create a consistent tutorial based on the situation. With AI levels that high, are you going to be holding for 4 minutes or 40 minutes. Is anybody going to be taking off, or are you going to have 27 planes landing simultaneously one after another with no hope of any planes taking off. These are factors you won't know off the top of your head, and you won't be able to say, load this much fuel because you might have enough, but you might also run short if you're waiting for two hours for take-off. If you look at the tutorial that came with the plane, you'll notice there is one fixed route, that won't change. You get told how much fuel to load. That won't change. You get told what your zero fuel weight is. That won't change. Your take-off speeds are based off of weight, so that won't change. Your fuel burn would ultimately depend on whether you're running the simulator as you're reading the tutorial or whether you pause it as you're reading it, but we're talking very minimal difference, maybe a couple pounds of fuel. On approach, you get told you'll land flaps 30, so that won't change. The speeds are based off of your weight, so they'll be fairly close. All of these are known variables that you are told to set. Start throwing in unknowns like default ATC and AI, and everything goes out the window. All of a sudden, you might run out of fuel mid-flight because you were in a hold on the ground for 3 hours 24 minutes. What do you do now.

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