kevinfirth

Q400 startup problems

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  1. This is what I'm greeted by when I load the Majestic Q400

2017-4-23_19-12-53-66.md.jpg

Anyone know why my displays are all whacked out?  Oil indicators flicker and show multiple values, the hydraulic pressure indicators are jumping around like nobodys business :S

Short video below showing how it looks....  Tried making the a/c cold and dark, starts up just the same, reinstalled the 1.018e patch...no joy :(

PRO edition, updated to the 1.018e patch...

SOLVED: Damned Windows 10 Creators edition GRRR!  Reinstalled and all OK

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LOL  I drove myself crazy for the last 2 hours trying to figure out what the issue was, until I figured out the same, then stumbled across your post.  I hadn't flown the Q400 since Creator's Update as I was busy at work, gardening, taxes, etc.  Downloading now and hopefully a reinstall will work. :)

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I couldn't get any clicks to register, and there were no sounds, combined with the plane being in a half started state. A quick search on the Majestic forum and a reinstall was the answer here as well. Note this is also Win 10 Creator's edition.

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Winblows 10 ... you folks are lucky, the Win 10 1703 (aka Creators) for Enterprise edition just gets stuck in a perpetual Windows Check for updates loop ... reported issue (even with video) to Microslop and the response was ... drum roll (I think everyone knows already) ... wipe my PC and install Winblows 10 1703 Enterprise from scratch.  Where have I heard that before ... oh wait, I know ... anytime I show Microslop engineers a bug.

Sorry, I've lost all respect for Microsoft and Winblows 10 flavors ... Microsoft stopped caring about their "desktop" OS a long long long time ago.  I use Winblows 10 simply because I have to for testing and work and it has DX12 ... beyond that it's the most bug filled OS I've ever seen and I'm pretty sure Microsoft are never going to making it right.

But just curious, are you suggesting the Q400 issue is a result of Win 10 creators edition?  If so, was this an "upgrade" or a clean install of Creator's edition (Build 1703).  Also, was the Q400 installed prior to the upgrade to 1703?

Cheers, Rob.

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43 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Winblows 10 ... you folks are lucky, the Win 10 1703 (aka Creators) for Enterprise edition just gets stuck in a perpetual Windows Check for updates loop ... reported issue (even with video) to Microslop and the response was ... drum roll (I think everyone knows already) ... wipe my PC and install Winblows 10 1703 Enterprise from scratch.  Where have I heard that before ... oh wait, I know ... anytime I show Microslop engineers a bug.

Sorry, I've lost all respect for Microsoft and Winblows 10 flavors ... Microsoft stopped caring about their "desktop" OS a long long long time ago.  I use Winblows 10 simply because I have to for testing and work and it has DX12 ... beyond that it's the most bug filled OS I've ever seen and I'm pretty sure Microsoft are never going to making it right.

But just curious, are you suggesting the Q400 issue is a result of Win 10 creators edition?  If so, was this an "upgrade" or a clean install of Creator's edition (Build 1703).  Also, was the Q400 installed prior to the upgrade to 1703?

Cheers, Rob.

When windows 10 was offered for free, and I read about MSs new protocol of updates whether you wanted them or not, I figured that for simming, this would be a recipe for disaster sooner or later. I took a great deal of flack for my opinion, and was called old fashioned, stuck in the  past, yada yada..... I stuck with my perfectly working, bug free, Windows 7, and guess what, the issues that I had predicted back then are starting to surface. You get up in the morning, start your Flight sim, and it is broken, and you find that Microsoft decided to break something in your OS, and their attitude is , If they blow up your PC, you get to keep all the pieces you can find.... :huh: This is what happens when you take an OS that was basically designed for a Tablet and a phone and try to run a desktop with it. 

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I run win 10 and surely you know it's main purpose now? I think its mostly for tracking your browsing data and delving out the info for sales ads. They just throw in "great for gamers" for more attention. Oh there are some enhancements you can list on part of one hand, but you got to take off shoes and socks to finish counting out the new "bad stuff". Will it get better? No idea.

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5 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

But just curious, are you suggesting the Q400 issue is a result of Win 10 creators edition?  If so, was this an "upgrade" or a clean install of Creator's edition (Build 1703).  Also, was the Q400 installed prior to the upgrade to 1703?

Cheers, Rob.

My problem only appeared after the update.  A reinstall of the Q440 solved the issue so no biggie.

A reinstall into both an updated win10 and a clean 1703 install both rendered the Q400 flyable no problems, the only problem encountered was a Q400 install followed by the win10 update.

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Kevin,

Funnily enough, I too had this problem with the Q400, however it was using FSX. It only started happening after the update but not sure if that was the cause. A reinstall of the Q400 fixed it for me but never actually found out what caused it.

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9 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Sorry, I've lost all respect for Microsoft and Winblows 10 flavors ... Microsoft stopped caring about their "desktop" OS a long long long time ago.  I use Winblows 10 simply because I have to for testing and work and it has DX12 ... beyond that it's the most bug filled OS I've ever seen and I'm pretty sure Microsoft are never going to making it right.

I feel for you, Rob, I really do! Windows 7 is still proving to be MS's high point, of that I am now convinced. I've lost count of the number of folk bemoaning the abomination they call Windows 10, but few listen when I encourage them to return to Windows 7. There never has been a pressing need for the vast majority of users to make the switch to Windows 10. Windows 7 is still good for another few years. Perhaps by then they will have sorted out 10...or are we kidding ourselves? Perhaps they have bitten off more than they can chew this time around or maybe it's just a case of too many cooks involved in the development of an O/S (development by committee..lol). These fiascos must surely be very embarrassing. Thank God I don't have to be part of it!

Regards,

Mike

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8 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

I feel for you, Rob, I really do! Windows 7 is still proving to be MS's high point, of that I am now convinced. I've lost count of the number of folk bemoaning the abomination they call Windows 10, but few listen when I encourage them to return to Windows 7. There never has been a pressing need for the vast majority of users to make the switch to Windows 10. Windows 7 is still good for another few years. Perhaps by then they will have sorted out 10...or are we kidding ourselves? Perhaps they have bitten off more than they can chew or maybe it's just a case of too many cooks involved in the development of this o/s (development by committee..lol) These fiascos must surely be very embarrassing. Thank God I don't have to be part of it!

Regards,

Mike

+1 I find myself sorting W10 gremlins than actually flying. I still have my W7 DVD, so I shall be rolling back.

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ive had a few minor issues with win10 but all have been outweighed by its better performance in sim. 

with a new 7700k at 4.9ghz under win 10 im screaming along with 60fps in the ngx vc and upwards of 100fps in other a/c.  set against reinstalling my q400 once which took a few minutes whats not to like? 

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18 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

ive had a few minor issues with win10 but all have been outweighed by its better performance in sim. 

with a new 7700k at 4.9ghz under win 10 im screaming along with 60fps in the ngx vc and upwards of 100fps in other a/c.  set against reinstalling my q400 once which took a few minutes whats not to like? 

Switch to W 10 and get fantastic FPS.   LOL.... now that's funny. 

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7 hours ago, kevinfirth said:with a new 7700k at 4.9ghz under win 10 im screaming along with 60fps in the ngx vc and upwards of 100fps in other a/c.  set against reinstalling my q400 once which took a few minutes whats not to like? 

Hi Kevin,

With all due respect, I'm quite sure you've been in this game long enough to appreciate that such statements mean very little without appropriate qualification. I upgraded my GPU a few days ago and, as part of that upgrade, P3D was returned to default conditions by allowing a rebuild of Prepar3D.cfg and the Shaders cache. Initially I too witnessed frame rates >100 and that was before returning the overclock of my 5960X to 4.4GHz (I returned it to stock speeds before performing a clean graphic driver update - probably completely unnecessary, but I regard it as being safer). 

However, I was under no illusions as I knew this would change once I started piling on the settings, including SGSSAA 4x along with MSAA x4 Samples. I was hoping that the GTX 1080Ti would allow this without the same degree of performance penalty as witnessed under my 2 GTX 980Ti in SLI. This has proven to be the case. Now, I can achieve much higher frame rates than before in very demanding situations, including a 5 cloud layer configuration in AS 2016/ASCA. Furthermore, and of far more importance, this improves the overhead while restricting GPU workload by pegging in-sim rates at 31fps (VSync and Triple Buffering OFF) without any significant dipping into the low - mid 20s as seen on occasions with my previous setup.

To give you some idea,  I was seeing >100fps at KVPS with everything at default whereas now frame rates have dropped to 60-70fps (fair weather with light cloud) which, all things considered, is not too shabby and now the sim seems butter smooth all of the time. Whether or not this will continue to apply in every situation and with increasing a/c complexity remains to be seen, but I am optimistic.

i very much doubt that the choice of O/S has much bearing on achievable frame rates. More likely a fresh install has tidied things up and unleashed the true potential of the sim.

Regards,

Mike

 

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1 hour ago, Cruachan said:

Hi Kevin,

With all due respect, I'm quite sure you've been in this game long enough to appreciate that such statements mean very little without appropriate qualification. I upgraded my GPU a few days ago and, as part of that upgrade, P3D was returned to default conditions by allowing a rebuild of Prepar3D.cfg and the Shaders cache. Initially I too witnessed frame rates >100 and that was before returning the overclock of my 5960X to 4.4GHz (I returned it to stock speeds before performing a clean graphic driver update - probably completely unnecessary, but I regard it as being safer). 

However, I was under no illusions as I knew this would change once I started piling on the settings, including SGSSAA 4x along with MSAA x4 Samples. I was hoping that the GTX 1080Ti would allow this without the same degree of performance penalty as witnessed under my 2 GTX 980Ti in SLI. This has proven to be the case. Now, I can achieve much higher frame rates than before in very demanding situations, including a 5 cloud layer configuration in AS 2016/ASCA. Furthermore, and of far more importance, this improves the overhead while restricting GPU workload by pegging in-sim rates at 31fps (VSync and Triple Buffering OFF) without any significant dipping into the low - mid 20s as seen on occasions with my previous setup.

To give you some idea,  I was seeing >100fps at KVPS with everything at default whereas now frame rates have dropped to 60-70fps (fair weather with light cloud) which, all things considered, is not too shabby and now the sim seems butter smooth all of the time. Whether or not this will continue to apply in every situation and with increasing a/c complexity remains to be seen, but I am optimistic.

i very much doubt that the choice of O/S has much bearing on achievable frame rates. More likely a fresh install has tidied things up and unleashed the true potential of the sim.

Regards,

Mike

 

Mike I agree I am cautious too.  The fact remains I am getting obscene frame rates all settings maxed with heavy addons. 

Is that due to Win10? I don't know.

Is that due to a medium overclocked 7700K? I don't know.

I am not attributing the cause of my comfort to anything in any particular measure, just telling it how it is.

To be honest, I don't have the time to exhaustively test to find out, renovating a house and working full time with 2 children under 3 does not lend itself to technological experimentation ;)

All I can say is that when I upgraded to Win10 on my old 2500K rig, I saw a noticeable performance increase.  I subsequently had to reinstall Win10 clean in January this year when my SSD died (moments silence!), and after a complete reinstall performance was pretty much the same as under the upgraded OS.  I saw an order of magnitude increase again when I moved to the 7700K.  Similarly, a long story but MS messed me around and I have run P3D under both a pre-existing OS install with the new hardware, and with a fresh Win10 installation, and the performance in both condition was near indistinguishable.

Without empirical evidence that I don't have the time to collect, I think its not unreasonable to draw a preliminary conclusion that both OS and hardware are a factor, much more so than a fresh OS install, but I'd suspect that the biggest influence is the new CPU and RAM.

Cheers K

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Hi Kevin,

2 hours ago, kevinfirth said:

To be honest, I don't have the time to exhaustively test to find out, renovating a house and working full time with 2 children under 3 does not lend itself to technological experimentation ;)

Yes, it's all too easy for us old codgers to see such time consuming activities and responsibilities as distant memories. Priorities change as you grow older 😀.

I think it has more to do with the resident DirectX/OpenGL APIs. If an application, whether it be a Game or Simulation, has been optimised to take advantage of, say, DirectX 11 then it doesn't matter much that it is running on Windows 7, 8.1 or Windows 10. The latter has DirectX 12 which, maintains backwards compatibility with DirectX 9,10 and 11. I would assume that the relevant API components are the same and provide the optimised direct link with hardware which might remain unchanged from one build to the next. The rest depends on software design and hardware driver coding revisions to make the most efficient use of what is available while accessing the DirectX/OpenGL APIs.

For most of us, and right now, DirectX 12 is still largely irrelevant as there are only a few gaming titles taking advantage of it's new features. Prepar3D 32bit, X-Plane, etc. are all optimised for DirectX 11. Prepar3D V4 64bit, if it exists, has yet to appear. However, it is reasonable to assume that it has been developed to allow the exploitation of DirectX 12 sometime in the future, thus ensuring its longevity as the relentless march of hardware progress continues.

Regards,

Mike

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10 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Switch to W 10 and get fantastic FPS.   LOL.... now that's funny. 

Not funny, its what I'm seeing - although as posted earlier I think the bigger factor is upgraded hardware..

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41 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

Not funny, its what I'm seeing - although as posted earlier I think the bigger factor is upgraded hardware..

There were many reports of increased performance when W10 was first installed, but 99% of them found that a fresh install of any OS produced the same results. This was discovered by simmers that didn't like W10 and rolled back to W7. 

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C'mon guys, let's leave it at that. Kevin and many others are clearly quite happy with their choices. Me, I'm content to keep MS off my back for as long as practically possible.  I don't need the stress.

Regards,

Mike

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I am in no way an MS fan, without details they have caused me no end of grief.  But I cant deny Win10 is overall a pretty decent platform for me.  I completely respect everyone elses choices though :)

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I will be upgrading to Windows 10 when I purchase a new PC, but I have no idea when that will be at this stage. I would prefer to do it before I suffer a system failure with my current three year old i5 4690k powered PC. Waiting three weeks for this one to be delivered after my old i5 2500k PC suffered a double GPU/motherboard failure in July 2014 was torture!

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I can't confirm any performance gains from Win 7 to Win 10 ... all my tests shows them as close to equal as my testing accuracy allows for.

Today's Windows 10 "adventure" ... in Visual Studio, double click an Excel 2016 spreadsheet I have saved as documentation in my VS 2015 solution and now Excel pops up and forces my document into "Protected Mode" (meaning it can't be edited).  No idea why, the very same document I open early in the morning from the same PC and no such warning.

So I'm yet again forced into researching why I'm now getting this message that I wasn't before ... Microsoft shows me how to disable this Excel "feature", so I disable it ... test again, problem remains.  Just yet again another hour of my day wasted trying to resolve Microsoft Office/OS/VS bugs ... sadly this is a daily routine adding up to many 1000's of hours lost researching a problem that shouldn't exist.

The past 17 years have been more about researching problems with Microsoft's products/OS/development tools than actually coding solutions.  Having coded for over 37 years from the very beginnings of PCs, my productivity (as in working and deployed code/solutions) has progressively gone down every year since about 2000.  It's a rather sad state of software engineering in the Microsoft world of products where development "teams" are REQUIRED to implement solutions ... has to be a dedicated UI developer, a dedicated web services developer, a dedicated DB developer, a dedicated security developer, deployment developer, graphic artist, a lead developer to coordinate scope, and a project manager to talk to the real world.  That's just a "start" ... with all these required resources the cost of software development has skyrocketed.  Why?  Because Microsoft have positioned themselves and their technologies in such a way that teams ARE required ... that was NOT always the case.

Anyway, back on topic, so we can confirm that updating to Windows 10 creator (1703) did break something with the Q400 which requires a re-install of the Q400 ... thanks for the information Kevin.

Cheers, Rob.

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3 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Anyway, back on topic, so we can confirm that updating to Windows 10 creator (1703) did break something with the Q400 which requires a re-install of the Q400

It certainly looked like it with my install, and reinstall. Plus I saw a report or two over on the Majestic forum.

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I can confirm MJC Q400 needs a re-install after updating to Windows 10 Creator 1703 (enterprise edition).  Once re-installed the Q400 works as expected.

Cheers, Rob.

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Also having some problems with my Q400 - don't think it has anything to do with Win10 (which I also run) - strangely

when I try and load it on the runway I get all the warnings going off in the cockpit (bank angle ect..) then I get a green banner across the top of the screen with "crash" - plane is not moving and engines not started -  running version 1.018 pro edition (just before recent update) and P3Dv3 - anyone any ideas? (not sure if its worth doing a completely reinstall - if yes then whats best way to uninstall it?

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