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jeffhunter

Proper procedure for autoland? *HELP*

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Hi there, can anyone help me with the proper way to land in FS2004?I usually have the autopilot connected following the ILS glideslope, and autothrottle connected as well to maintain my landing speed. When the main wheels touchdown the engines rev up and the aircraft goes up in the air again? What am I doing wrong? Do I need to disconnect autothrottle just before touchdown?Look forward to repliesGavin Moss

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Guest jerrycwo4

"I don't suppose you might be thinking that using the AP in ILS/APPR mode actually lands the aircraft as well?"Is this a joke? I auto land with AP all the way to dead stop at the end of the landing runway a lot of times. Of course, your aircraft has to have a AP to do this.

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Guest DNelson

No it's not a joke. Autoland in the real world is a rare occurrence. The plane has to be certified for it, the crew has to be certified for it, and the airport has to be certified for it. Very few airports in the U.S. are certified for Cat III operations. If indeed any AP-equipped aircraft will autoland on any ILS-equipped runway in FS9 (never tried it), that's not at all representative of the real world.

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Guest Jetfan

Gavin,To the best of my knowledge, AP will not actually autoland the airplane, not very well anyway. You can ride the ILS down with AP, but you must decouple the AP, A/T's and put the throttles to idle at about 100' above ground level and land it yourself for best results.However, John Cillis has made some excellent autoland programs which work with just about any aircraft. I don't know if Autoland2002 works in FS2k4, but he also made one for FS2k4, check the file library, just do a search for John Cillis.If Autoland2002 works in FS2k4, it does just about everything, but it is not 'pushbutton' easy, you must make a good approach, then it will start the autoland procedure at about 300' above ground level. It also applies thrust reversers and spoilers too, I believe. Check it out, it's really neat to watch technology at work.Autoland for FS2k4 does not do quite everything, but I'm sure you can manage what it doesn't.Cheers,Bob

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The default FS2004 autopilot CANNOT perform an autoland by itself. It can get you close, but you have to disconnect the autopilot and autothrottle and do the flare and rollout yourself.Some addon aircraft, primarily but not exclusively payware, will do autolands for you. Payware xamples are the PMDG 737NG series, PMDG 744-400, Level-D 767-300, PSS 777, and some payware Airbuses (PSS); for freeware, Lonny Payne's 757/767 panel and Alain Capt's MD-11 panel both have working autoland. For the Boeings, typically you will set both NAV radios to the localizer frequency (or just the one dedicated ILS radio in the 767), then engage all two or three autopilot switches once you're riding the glideslope in approach mode. The instrument annunciators will tell you if you're in autoland mode, and from there you can just sit back and watch. I'm not quite sure how the system works on an Airbus, but I imagine it's pretty similar.Lewis "Moose" GregoryRichmond, Virginia

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If you want to try Autoland, I also have a standalone program that will do the last stretch for you, Autoland 2004. Even with that tool in my sim, I use it about once every few months, and usually to answer a support question. There's no greater joy than decoupling from APR mode and greasing the landing meself...Here's a link--it's a pretty small package:http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID...util&DLID=56108-JohnEdit: I've tested it with everything from piston to jet, and it works with just about everything that doesn't have its own autoland gauge or feature.

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> There's no>greater joy than decoupling from APR mode and greasing the>landing meself...>Absolutely, positively true. I could do landings all day, and often do practice patterns, especially when I get a new plane, to get the feel of it.Now, sure, autoland has its place, in bad weather with a plane & runway that is certified for it, but ...To those that want to autoland to "finish" every flight, jump into the FS9 lessons and learn how to fly a plane, you will love it once you learn how.And then, consider turning off the autopilot during climb and descent too! Never let a plane fly you, you should always fly the plane.* Orest-~~~~~~~~~Orest Skrypuchwww.united-virtual.comUAL011 Staff ORDFO

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>No it's not a joke. Autoland in the real world is a rare>occurrence. Are you suggesting then, in thick fog your not allowed to use the 'autoland'.As far as I know, airliner crews MUST and are REQUIRED TO use the autoland at least once a week!Dave T. .........On the Devon Riviera and active 'FlightSim User's Group' member at http://www.flightsimgrpuk.free-online.co.uk/

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The FS9 autopilot isn't intended to carry out an autolanding. However, I've found that my default C172 will flare automatically at a certain airport. I believe it's an unintended effect of the way the glideslope may be modelled in FS9.The glideslope transmitter is offset from the runway centre line so that as the aircraft approaches touch down it may appear to go below the glideslope because of the geometry, and start its flare. To illustrate this, imagine the aircraft on the ground alongside the glideslope transmitter. The aircraft would be below the glide slope because of the distance between the two. If the distance is say 50 m and the glide slope 3 deg, then the aircraft would appear to be 3 deg or 2.6 m below the glideslope and would be commanded to pull up. This effect would begin to buildup as the aircraft approaches the touchdown point.

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I agree. To most pilot, the approach (especially if in actual IMC) and landing is the one part that you wouldn't trade if you didn't have to. True as someone says here, if flying an aircraft rated for autoland, then the pilot and plane have currency requirements and must do some every so often, and if very bad visibility it may be necessary. But otherwise, I doubt if real airline pilots let the computer do all the work. Bruce.

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It is a rare occurance as fog that thick is rarely seen. CAT I approaches which are generally handflown, usually have visibility minimums of around 1/3 mile (RVR1800) and a 200 foot ceiling. CAT II is down to 100 foot ceiling and (1/2) RVR1200.As for curency, I believe it's once a month.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

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What airline pilots do is determined by their company's operational procedures - not what they personally may ore may not prefer to do.I understand that autopilot ILS approaches are the norm because, amongst other things, it reduces crew workload at a critical time in the flight. I also suspect that it will fly the approach more consistently than pilots will.Incidentally, when autolanding was being developed in the UK, high precision radar was used to record where aircraft being flown manually actually touched down. The results were analysed to determine the proportion of "unacceptable" landing in terms of position and touchdown speed. The target for autolanding was then set as an order better - ie the number of unacceptable autolandings was to be a tenth of manual ones.

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Landing in thick fog will depend on whether the ILS for that runway is CAT III rated - lots aren't, eg Heathrow's runways are only certified for CAT I and II, so the worst conditions you could land in are a Decision Height of 100 ft and Runway Visual Range of 1200 ft.Even a CAT IIIb requires a RVR of 700 ft with no DH.CAT II and III ops are not permitted in Australia, so the minima are DH 200, RVR 2400. Fog is not usually a problem here, except in Canberra, although it beats me why anyone would want to go there!Operators and aircraft have to be certified to CAT III standard, and both the pilot and the aircraft have to do one autoland every 45 days to remain current.I'm not sure whether any runway anywhere is yet certified to CAT IIIc standard, eg 0 DH/0 RVR.In short, the pea-souper/medical emergency flight that was in fs2002 would involve a IIIc approach - but as PIC you can elect to break the rules for an emergency.Jeff

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Runways 27L/R and 09L/R at Heathrow are CAT III. The UK CAT IIIb limits are DH lower than 15m or no DH, and RVR less than 200m but not less than 75m (246ft). Special safeguards and procedures are applied during CAT II/III operations to provide protection to aircraft operating in low visibility conditions, and to protect the ILS signal. Pre-takeoff holding points may be further from the runways. Taxiways within ILS sensitive areas are marked by a colour coded centreline (alternate yellow/green lights) and pilots should avoid stopping in these areas and only report 'Runway Vacated' when clear of these areas.

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I remember the first time I (as a passenger) experienced an Autolanding on a TWA L1011 in '84. It was bumpy as heck, and the pilot even apologized. However, since it was JFK, winds could have come into play or even wake turbulence.-John

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Guest Adverse Yawn

>>But otherwise, I doubt if real airline pilots let the computer do all >>the work.As mgh says, it ain't their choice. To give an example, British Airways A3xx pilots now must fly normal ops using automation (throttles and stick). Reasonabley recently the use of auto-throttle on approach was made mandatory for normal ops too. Clearly there maybe exceptions to the rule. I'm sure there are other examples.I suspect the main reason has nothing to do with safety, but fuel efficiency. Although the safety card will be played if anyone tries to criticise it!

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Fair enough. I've since had a look at the UK AIP, and although I see that operators can be approved for CAT III but can't find any specific reference to CAT III minima. Are you able to tell me where I might find them??Just interested.regards,Jeff

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I don't think that anyone is disputing that when weather, currency, safety or company/regularory policy say an autoland should be done, that then it should. That all makes sense.But with no requirements or reason to use an autoland existing, then why would yu use it and take away the best part of a flight? Assuming that one is capable of flying an approach manually.Bruce.

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They're in the AIP in AD 1-1-2 Aerodrome Operating Minima Section 2.10.

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