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Guest av84fun

Attn: Mr. Steve Halpern (Flight 1) Re: refund policy

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As far as I know, it applies to all Flight1 products. At least, it's applied to all the ones I've purchased. Not that I've yet felt the need to take advantage of the offer mind you. :)

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I agree. I think it covers everything they have to offer.

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Wow, this is a first among add-on developers, at least to the best of my knowledge. I remain impressed.

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As far as I know also. Like above they'd have to pry all my Flight 1 products off my cold dead hard drive. :D I have seen on their forums where they have issued refunds.

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>Wow, this is a first among add-on developers, at least to the>best of my knowledge. I remain impressed. Most developers I'm aware of have the same policy, but rarely (if ever) make a "public issue" of it for what I should hope are obvious reasons."The life-time value of a single customer is worth far more than the loss of a single sale." (Charles Tandy, Founder of Radio Shack)

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I remain in disagreement with the policy of requiring a purchase before being allowed to review forum posts...but in fairness, the return policy is clearly stated under the Terms of Service section which appears, as normal, at the bottom of the main site page. I have quoted it below."Products may be returned or refunded within 30 days unless otherwise noted at the time of purchase, or if the item is a special sale or close-out item. If your order was purchased from a file using the Flight1.com Download E-Commerce system, we will require you to fill out a simple affidavit stating proper removal of the title and keys from your system (this can be handled via e-mail). In some cases, a similar affidavit may be required for boxed or CD ROM titles also.On boxed or CD ROM titles, only the product price is refunded, not the shipping. All products must also be returned in excellent condition, with no items or inserted material missing. In some cases, a 15% restocking fee may be applied"That certainly eliminates risk but I for one, don't want to purchase and install an add-on and then go through the EXTENSIVE learning curve required to use complex add-ons only to THEN find out there are issues that would motivate me to obtain a refund.Some things people complain about would not bother me and some would. I would never buy a product without access to a developer's forum.If they HAVE no forum, then I have no choice other than to rely on THIS great forum for my info. But if there IS a developer forum and it cannot be accessed without purchase then count me out...for a good long time anyway, until the threads on this and other forums tell me what I need to know.Just IMHO.Best,Jim

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Hi"Most developers I'm aware of have the same policy, but rarely (if ever) make a "public issue" of it for what I should hope are obvious reasons."Oh yeah?Try that with PMDG,PSS,Captain Sim.It ain`t gonna happen!!!Troy

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You can probably add FSD to the list also.

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Hi, I have read this concern of yours a few times now I think, what about the information in the General Discussion Forum? Surely most of the support issues are posted in the Support Forum, but it

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I'll never forget a few years ago when I purchased the Dreamfleet737 and got horrible framerates. I emailed the developers and asked for a refund. I fully expected the usual "upgrade your computer", "its your fault" "you're haven't RTFM", etc. Instead, what I got was an extremely polite reply. They were sorry that I was having performance issues and hoped that in the future things would be better so that I could enjoy the product. All I had to do was delete all the associated files (they left that up to my honesty) and reply to the email to confirm that I wanted to proceed with the refund. I was so impressed with that attitude that for the first time, I actually went out and upgraded my computer just to use a new addon. Needless to say, I did not go ahead with the refund.From that time, I've always trusted Flight1/Dreamfleet.Contrast that with the policy of PMDG for example that gives no refunds under any circumstances.Or what about Captain Sim.....who called their customers "Traitors" and threatened to "Ban them for life" just because they requested refunds.So I'd say that this Flight1 policy is even better than offering a "Demo". Because you get to demo the FULL product for a FULL MONTH with no restrictions whatsoever. If you don't like it you get ALL your money back. Given this policy, I think something as trivial as having to purchase the product before you can get into the support forums should not be taken as anything other than...trivial.Is the release "Bug free". For some it is. For a lot of others, it isn't. I, for example, haven't had any of the issues mentioned. I also know plenty of friends and others that have had no problems either. Some problems are RTFM problems....for example the inability to tune ILS frequencies on the Nav Radios...turns out that this feature is realistic. You can only tune the ILS frequencies on the radio on the pedestal. Other problems are maybe due to currupt installations, or other bugs that will probably show up on my system soon. The final analysis is that you as customers have the right to keep your money in your wallet. If, given the refund policy you're gonna stay away because you can't get unto the support forum, then don't buy it. Nothing's wrong with that. :-roll

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>Oh yeah?>Try that with PMDG,PSS,Captain Sim.>It ain`t gonna happen!!!I cannot say anything about the refund policy of those 3 companies, but Bill said "most developers" and you mention just 3 out of a few dozens (not only for aeroplanes). Wolfgang

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Oh forgotLago as well.Wilco too.Troy

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Uwe"That certainly eliminates risk but I for one, don't want to purchase and install an add-on and then go through the EXTENSIVE learning curve required to use complex add-ons only to THEN find out there are issues that would motivate me to obtain a refund"You know what.Maybe it`s better that he does`nt get this addon as it seems like he`s doing everyone a favor by doing so.I can see him clogging up the support forum demanding answers to RTFM questions.He just does`nt get it ya know?He should go for the CS 76 when it`s released as I`m sure the learning curve/support will be more to his taste.;)The support issue is LDS policy and I agree with it as it is designed for the user/potential user both.Troy

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I don't have the 767, but I don't have a problem at all with the closed support forum. It's not like any issues that exist aren't going to be talked up ad-infinitum on sites like avsim and flightsim so if there are big problems, they'll be public knowledge in no time. I think if I were to purchase the 767, having a closed support forum would be a benefit to me as a customer becuase it would eliminate the endless meaningless debates that always seem to come up and that are usually made worse by poeple who don't even have the product...

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>>>I'm impressed to say the least, thank you.>>Hi Dianne,This has always been F1's policy for many years.It's a simple concept, You may not agree that the product has the value or wasn't what you thought it was going to be. If you don't agree within 30 days, we refund you. That's exactly the way I want to be treated when I buy a product and that's the same thing we offer to our customers.Regards,Jim RhoadsFlight1

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And thats why I never shy away from buying anything from F1. They are one of the best out there.

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Suppose I request a refund, how can Flight1 be sure if I remove the software of my harddrive, or don't have a backup of it ? Seems to me that somebody with evil intent can fiddle with the system...

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>Suppose I request a refund, how can Flight1 be sure if I>remove the software of my harddrive, or don't have a backup of>it ? Seems to me that somebody with evil intent can fiddle>with the system...>>Sounds to me like they are willing to trust people in the interest of being good to their customers. I like that policy and I think the majority of people who make purchases from them are like me, in that they wouldn't do the right thing. You'll always have a few jerks, but deep down, I believe most people will do the right thing. I appreciate the attitude they take with their customers with regard to this and it makes me glad I'm already a customer of theirs. I certainly will buy from them again.KP

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On their website for downloaded products it says that they only require you to confirm in an email that the purchase has been removed completely from your computer system.

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Yes, it applies to all products. It doesn't necessarilly apply to products for which F1 supplies only the E-commerce wrapper but it does for products published by F1.Here's the official statement (Terms of Service page): http://www.flight1.com/view.asp?page=tos

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Correct. In the unlikely case your key then turns up on a piracy website F1 will have your statement you destroyed it with which to hit you extra hard.Apart from that it's a matter of mutual trust.You trust F1 to indeed give you a refund and they trust you to keep your word and remove the product.Of course they also trust themselves enough that they feel that the number of people abusing the system will be minimal and the only refunds that are requested will be from truly disappointed users or users who cannot be helped in any other way (say because of severe hardware incompatibility problems that cannot be resolved in an economically viable way).

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Troy your facts are incorrect PSS does offer refunds and have issued a number over the years. We service each customer on a case by case basis and do not set a general policy.Robert KirklandPSS SUPPORTsupport@phoenix-simulation.co.ukhttp://www.avsim.com/pss/phoenix.jpg

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My experience with Flight1 is that they do like to place their trust in their customers, whether it be trusting the customer to delete all traces of the software in case of refund, or other situations.When I purchased Ultimate Traffic from them, my only choice was to snailmail my order. When I had heard nothing from them after what I thought was a reasonable timeframe for the order to get there, I emailed them asking about it. They said they had not received it yet at that time, but gave me my key in good faith that the order would indeed get there, which it some time later. For them to take my word for it that I had indeed put the order form in the mailbox shows that they do have a high level of trust in their customers, and trust equals respect. I certainly would buy from them again, and recently did... :)

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Is this statement based on your personal experience? I purchased the Navajo from FSD and for some reason couldn't get it to run on my rig at all. When notified of the fact, FSD graciously refunded the purchase price. All I had to do was run a little config utility they send me that verified that the aircraft had been removed from my system. So in my experience, FSD is quite good about refunds.

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In all honesty, I've never requested a refund from a software vendor, but it really makes an impression on me when a company like Flight One has this much faith in their products, along with commitment to customer satisfaction. As you mention, so many other developers simply refuse such terms altogether. I personally would never request a refund except in the most extreme circumstances where I felt a product was truly defective and/or grossly misrepresented. It is like trying a fully-functioning demo, yes, but for me it really takes the risk away altogether in going through a decision-making process when I purchase a new title. Flight One sounds like a Blue Chip organization that I can trust, I like that a lot. :)

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