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Paul Golding

Question for Dreamfleet 727 owners

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I am seriously considering purchasing this product for the following reasons:1. No FMC so it must be flown old school2. No autoland so hand flown approaches are a must3. It seems like most systems are modelled4. The Fedex livery looks great (used to work for Fedex)5. The price is reasonableMy question for current 727 owners is the FAQ mentions navigation is handled by VOR/ADF so does that mean I have to manually input each individually?Can a use a product like FSBuild to create flight plans?If anyone is interested, I am trying to figure out if the DF727 would be the best choice for me or the SSW A310 (Comments welcome)

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you can load a flight plan like you were flying a GPS plan and have the airplane fly the aux nav

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The MB IV Autopilot will track a FS9 generated flight plan. By selecting the AUX/NAV, aileron channel, elevator channel, alttude hold, and heading select switches the plane will follow the flight plan, but you are responsible for climb cruise, descent and a portion of the approach.This is a great aircraft, easy to hand fly but it is not one you just pick-up the model to go fly around the world. I have had the model for over a year, and I am still learning something new each I take a flight.Tom

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As noted, the AUX position on the autopilot lets you follow a standard FS9 flightplan, which can be generated in FSBuild. If you want to be truely old school then you must set the VOR/ADFs to the proper frequencies and use those instruments to follow your route with HDG or NAV, rather than using the AUX setting.This is a very well done a/c and a joy to fly.DJ

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Hello All, I can only say what I have said since first getting the beta of the DF 727. THEY JUST DON'T COME ANY BETTER!Best,Clay

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If you want the "real" old way of flying, this is it, as Clay said above, it does not get better!!!To learn the details of navigating with VOR and ADF, as they did in the olden days before FMS ... you can check out this excellent site: http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/index.htm .... this is where I went to learn the ins and outs of "old fashioned" navigation.By way of comparison, the SSW A-310 is a "modern" jetliner fully equipped with modern avionics and systems like an FMS ... nicely done if that's what you are looking for ... but for the best of the best for 727 aircraft ... the DF is for you!!!I still remember the days of the Laguardia to Boston shuttle and many happy hours sitting in a crowded 727 (hahahaha) and even a few good compressor stalls!!!

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>To learn the details of navigating with VOR and ADF, as they>did in the olden days before FMS ... you can check out this>excellent site: http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/index.htm ....>this is where I went to learn the ins and outs of "old>fashioned" navigation.>I learned navigation the old way. Love vintage airliners, older military aircraft, especially WWII, as well as early GA airplanes. Own the DF 727 too.But geeze.............I sure like the new glass panels with navigation, auto-pilots, terrain awarness, up to date weather and more..............tied to the latest GPS systems! :D L.Adamson

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I was an engineer on the 727 and we had a GFMS. It was purely GPS based and would do coupled lateral navigation. There were limitations though. It couldn't be used below 5000 feet and we weren't allowed to use it for holding eventhough it would work fine for both.I too am looking really hard at getting this addon. I just got the pmdg 737 and 747 so I have some learning to do. I fly 737 for work so I don't need to do much study there but that 747 looks comlicated. Of course I did go through engineer school on the 727 back in 1999 so maybe some of that is still in my head.

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The DF727 is one of the best.I to learned the old way and it is a great addon to keep you honest.It keeps you busy during every flight,worth every penny.Frank

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I agree. One of the greatest things is that this add-on keeps you busy. I have this add-on for a week now (finally released on CD-ROM!). When I try it on my favourite routes I

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What's the printed manual like? Is there enough in it to learn the systems, or do you need to use the electronic version as well? And does it include a tutorial flight like the old 737-400?Ian

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Don't know about the printed manual, I have the download version, but the PDF manual is VERY good if you want to print it out. It will tell you everything you need to know. And I'm pretty sure there is a tutorial flight included, which is a good thing, as bringing the bird to life from "cold and dark" takes a bit of work. Not as much as some planes since there's no need to program an FMC, but there is a good bit of switch-flipping involved.I cannot recommend this thing enough. I'm the head of a 727 program at one of the bigger VAs out there (Delta Virtual, http://www.deltava.org) and most of our 727 flyers have bought the DF 727 and love it. We're a little fanatic about it, to be honest. :) And the user edit that Paul mentioned, to add the excellent freeware Delco Carousel IV-A INS gauges to the panel? Icing on the cake.It is far and away my favorite jetliner, even over and above the superb Level-D 767. Buy it and you will not be disappointed. And, remember, if you download it from Flight 1, they have a 30-day money-back return policy, so there's no risk. :)Lewis "Moose" GregoryRichmond, Virginia

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The printed manual has 60 pages and contains mainly panel descriptions, performance tables & checklists. Its a great resource.The tutorial flight is in a PDF file so you would have to print that yourself

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Also, the package installs a tutorial flight setup (actually, I think there may be two of them) as well providing full checklists and performance tables on the FS kneeboard so you can actually go cold and dark to start-up just by following the checklists in FS.Dreamfleet Project ManagerGreatest Airliners - DC-8Greatest Airliners - 727 Whisperjethttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

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Paul, many thanks for the DF727, which at the moemtn is my favourite aircraft by far!A question: how does one fly STARs or SIDs, which consist of waypoints correctly. I do not have the CIVA INS installed and therefore I usually prefer SIDs and STARs which contain mainly VORs and NDBs and do not have too many waypoints. If there is a waypoint then I usually use FSNAV to measure the distance from a VOR which is eqipped with DME and or check on which VOR radial this particular waypoint is located and/or determin the bearing from an NDB. A combination of 2 of these methods determinates roughly, where a certain waypoint is located, but this method is not very exact. Thus I usually overfly waypoints or turn too early. Is ther another method to track waypoints without INS, GPS or FMS?CheersWolfgang

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Also, while on this thread - do the current Fed Ex 727's or Cougar's planes have an FMS installed? Or do these cargo haulers still navigate the old fashioned way??? (Always wanted to know this!)Many thanks in advance.Cheers,(SONIC) BooneCurrently saving pennies for a new pooter for FSX (don't tell the misses!)

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>Also, while on this thread - do the current Fed Ex 727's or>Cougar's planes have an FMS installed? Or do these cargo>haulers still navigate the old fashioned way??? (Always wanted>to know this!)>Many thanks in advance.>I don't know the actual legalities of the situations, but when ever I see a WWII bomber at any fly-in, I always see a hand-held moving map GPS sitting somewhere around the glare-sheild. I can always assume that the hand-held is bascially the "real" source of first hand navigation, while other systems make up the "legal" parts. I can't imagine any airliner size airplane operating without some type of GPS or FMS these days. After numerous flight into terrain accidents, and recommendations from the review boards of these accidents, it's highly recommended that aircraft carry moving map GPS devices for the "highly added" situational awareness they offer.These day's, it's just STUPID for commercial aircraft, or any aircraft to fly into rising terrain, when a simple moving map GPS can make all the difference. End of rant.... :D L.Adamson

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Actually, I think you'll find it's the other way around with VOR/NDB being the real source and GPS for additional awareness.For terrain awareness, my 727 has the RealityXP TAWS installed and it certainly makes low vis approaches to the likes of Innsbruck a lot more comfortable :-)That said, a look on airliners.net shows plenty of recent 727 cockpits with no evidence of additional nav equipment.Dreamfleet Project ManagerGreatest Airliners - DC-8Greatest Airliners - 727 Whisperjethttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

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>Actually, I think you'll find it's the other way around with>VOR/NDB being the real source and GPS for additional>awareness.VOR/NDB is still the "legal" source for most aircraft at the moment, even though NDB's are being phased out in the U.S., and VOR's will likely follow. Shortly, IFR legal GPS will be the norm.Now.........with glass panels (Garmin 1000)that you'll find in a new Cessna 172 "trainer", which are much more navigation oriented than some systems found in commercial airliners, (example: XM Satellite weather overlayed on the moving map), what's the "real" source? An instant 1/2 second look at the colored moving map GPS, or plotting DME & headings derivived from VOR's, wind corrections, etc? I'm just being realistic here.IMO, with GPS and WAAS that we have here in the U.S., I could care less when all northern hemisphere VOR's and NDB's disappear. I don't know if you've seen my recent GPS/WAAS test, which concluded that "altitudes" were being nailed within 10' or less? Sure beats the old 300' or so! L.Adamson

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If this influences your decision to purchase in any way, I actually first bought the captain sim version of the 727 and then later bought the DF. I wish I had waited for DF to come out, but I in no way regret purchasing both. As the others have mentioned, this plane keeps you busy. None of that boring hands off flying you get with FMS/C's. You'll absolutely love it. Hand flown approaches are terrific with this flight model. I have ready access to level C 727 sim time, and the DF version is spot on in every respect that can be replicated within FS. An DO try the INS gauge mods. Adding that program will really enhance your flight immersion. Buy the Jet! :-)And I am in no way affiliated with DF, but would work for free if I had any talents worthy of these payware gods.;-)

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Well I purchased it and I am impressed. It looks like I have to spend alot of time studying. Currently I am trying to complete the tutorial 1 from Budapest to Munich. I can't get past the Engine 2/APU Bleed Switches - ON on page 20.. lolIt is totally different than any other plane I flown so far. I have been fooling around flightsim since FS2000 and I have owned the PSS A320, Justflight's 777/747 combo (don't fly any of them anymore) and I currently own the LDS767 and the PMDG 6/7/8/900 and even though this is a Boeing aircraft it is totally different at least to me.I will be waking up early and staying up late to get this tutorial flight complete.

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>Also, while on this thread - do the current Fed Ex 727's or>Cougar's planes have an FMS installed? Or do these cargo>haulers still navigate the old fashioned way??? I believe many FDX 727s have the HT-9100 GNSS dual GPS installed. Each GPS has a MCDU on the pedestal. The GPS can be coupled to the FD and to the AP using the Aux Nav position on the Nav switch. Some A/C have single channel AP, some dual/autoland. Some are certified for Cat IIIA minima (requires special controls for windshear). The GPS also provides a CDI that I assume can be used for RNAV / LNAV approaches. FDX also has a laptop computer system that provides a lot of the data you could get from an FMS system (runway data / stopping data for example). My contact is now flying the MD-11 with full FMS.scott s..

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>>In addition, there's a number of user edits around for adding>the CIVA INS.>Where?* Orest

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