The analogy is incorrect, Holger. Two DIFFERENT packages using the same guage or texture is not the same as a partial set of textures that, because of limitations KNOWN to the developers, do not work as advertised unless the REST of the set is added, and that `rest` includes a massive level of double-accounting. Seemingly to provide justification for the pricing, and nothing more. Not paying for two cars. Paying twice for the SAME car? I don't think so.To carry on your incorrect analogy. I would most certainly be fleeced if my car company sold me a car as `fully functional`, only for me to find later on that if I needed some extra bits to drive it overseas, those extra bits were only available if I purchased the whole car again. Then go on to find that those extras were the exact same items that I already had, but they were in the boot rather than under the bonnet and all I had to do was swap them over.If it is only a dozen new textures and the rest are the same and it's the landclass that defines the `regional` look, why are we paying as much again as we did the first time? WHEN THE TEXTURES ARE THE SAME? FS doesn't seem to work that way, yet a variety of developers have sold it to us that it does. Yes, you're right I need to educate myself. And it's started.Allcott

Very intersting post Stephen.I didn't even think of istalling GE and BEV together.Does this mean that the GE ones fill in were the BEV ones don't when installed as you describe?Does it affect the autogen being displayed? With BEV I get alot of autogen scenery which is great but with GE, my autogen goes away.Also, does using UT for USA & Canada integerate well with both GE and BEV.Thanks!Scott :-)Proud user of BEV an UT, still trying to get the GE textures to work.

I don't have time to read all the answers but today I reinstalled BEV.I bought GE the day it was released and at no moment I was impressed by the textures. They are brighter and are really good in some cases, but BEV is superior IMO. It was a tough decision after paying 30 dollar for GE, but at the only moment I find GE better is when flying in an area with a lot of autogen and between 3 to 10k feet. In any other case I like BEV better. I won't make a list of things I like more of each as it would make a very long one, but in general BEV wins.My suggestion is, if you have BEV, KEEP IT. GE is no better.If you don't have BEV, well maybe the price of GE makes it a better option.Just my opinion,Leo

HelloHelloI have BEV and GE and like both, at the moment BEV is only of any use if you fly in the USA only.As one of the many flyers from europe i am really pleased that GE existsThe UK looks really good using GE, a lot better than the default textures and gets rid of the problem of some BEV textures showing up and looking odd.Here is a shot coming in to land at Bournemouth airport in the cloud9 F-104 With the default textures this would have just been brown fields in winter when in reality southern england is still green even at this time of year just slightly duller colours than later on.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/143912.jpg

>Yes, you're right I need to>educate myself. Alcott, I stronly suggest you do that and stop embarrassing yourself in front of the whole simming community here. You have been posting nonsense from the beginning and it won't become the truth even if you repeat it 100 times.Holger explained it in detail, but of course he is a total newbie so I understand that you keep contradicting him. You sound like a 5 year old who just learned to pull a lever arguing with a guy who has a PhD in advanced mechanics. You don't know the first thing about the SDK and how FS9 works, yet you stick to your opinion.I wouldn't even respond to your rant, but since you seem to have embarked on some BEV bashing crusade here, I have to respond since I believe BEV is worth every cent.I'm not getting into the BEV vs GE though, everyone has to decide for himself. If one has valid arguments against either, this is ok. But I believe it must have been months since I last read such a complete bag of BS on the internet as you are posting it here ... just let it be.no offense and happy flying

<<>>I hate it when I respond to trolls. Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com/FC_StartJava.html] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

>>Yes, you're right I need to>>educate myself. >>Alcott, I stronly suggest you do that and stop embarrassing>yourself in front of the whole simming community here. You>have been posting nonsense from the beginning and it won't>become the truth even if you repeat it 100 times.>>Holger explained it in detail, but of course he is a total>newbie so I understand that you keep contradicting him. You>sound like a 5 year old who just learned to pull a lever>arguing with a guy who has a PhD in advanced mechanics. You>don't know the first thing about the SDK and how FS9 works,>yet you stick to your opinion.>>I wouldn't even respond to your rant, but since you seem to>have embarked on some BEV bashing crusade here, I have to>respond since I believe BEV is worth every cent.>>I'm not getting into the BEV vs GE though, everyone has to>decide for himself. If one has valid arguments against either,>this is ok. But I believe it must have been months since I>last read such a complete bag of BS on the internet as you are>posting it here ... just let it be.>>no offense and happy flying>None taken, I'm just sorry you don't understand what I'm talking about. I've made it plain I don't object on quality grounds, but the manner in which the delivery of the product is made. And that has NOTHING to do with the SDK, except to raise the questions I want answers for. And I'm not alone. This isn't some `BEV bashing crusade`. I mention FScene at least as often as I mention BEV - and at least BEV does have it's front end to provide options that might go some way toward justifying the price. I've invested a great deal of money in BOTH BEV and FScene, and time and/or money in others, all of which have sold on the basis of this `regional` disparity. Now it seems there is no regional disparity, it's pure marketing hype designed to sell you textures you already own on multiple occasions. THAT'S where the BS is.I would simply like a simple answer to a simple question from each of those developers - just how many textures in each of your texture sets are actually different from each other, and from the default sim. The SDK wo't answer that, so there's no point sending me there. Although it has proved educational. Unlike your reply. No offense.Allcott

>Now it seems there is no regional disparity, it's>pure marketing hype designed to sell you textures you already>own on multiple occasions. THAT'S where the BS is.ok, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, if you really believe what you are writing, I apologize. But then let me clear up a few things, no need to go into SDK details. I'm not half the guru Holger is, but this is pretty basic:if you buy BEV Europe, why do you believe you already own those textures? why do you say there is "no regional disparity"? Europe has different lc textures than the US! Even the early FScene screenshots on SimMarket show Asia looking completely different from the US or Africa. The towns look different, the fields, ... so FS9 has different filenames for the Europe lc textures, hence you can have for example town textures that look different in Europe than they do in the US!So you do NOT own europe textures other than default if you only got BEV USA/Canada!If you got a texture replacement product that copies a US lc texture to a different filename belonging to the corresponding EUR lc texture, THEN and only then you would already own them! But what you would own is not EUR but the US made EUR compatible.This is not the case with BEV though. BEV EUR looks different from BEV US, as it's supposed to be. This was made clear on the BEV site from day one. Why is that BS or some marketing conspiracy?Hey, you can even rename the BEV US lc textures yourself to get BEV EUR or BEV Africa. But then you really would only have BEV US on other continents. Wouldn't make sense, would it? Hence it's only fair if BEV asks money for a new product, which BEV Europe is going to be.Besides, this is not a BEV forum - the BEV developers in the BEV forum are surely willing to respond in detail to any of your questions!The main reason for my objecting to your posts here is that you condemn the product by giving incorrect information about it.go here: http://www.flightsim-bevs.com/smf_1-0-5/index.phpmany nice people there helping out!:)

>>Now it seems there is no regional disparity, it's>>pure marketing hype designed to sell you textures you>already>>own on multiple occasions. THAT'S where the BS is.>>ok, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, if you really>believe what you are writing, I apologize. But then let me>clear up a few things, no need to go into SDK details. I'm not>half the guru Holger is, but this is pretty basic:>>if you buy BEV Europe, why do you believe you already own>those textures? why do you say there is "no regional>disparity"? Europe has different lc textures than the US! Even>the early FScene screenshots on SimMarket show Asia looking>completely different from the US or Africa. >>The towns look different, the fields, ... so FS9 has different>filenames for the Europe lc textures, hence you can have for>example town textures that look different in Europe than they>do in the US!>So you do NOT own europe textures other than default if you>only got BEV USA/Canada!>If you got a texture replacement product that copies a US lc>texture to a different filename belonging to the corresponding>EUR lc texture, THEN and only then you would already own them!>But what you would own is not EUR but the US made EUR>compatible.>>This is not the case with BEV though. BEV EUR looks different>from BEV US, as it's supposed to be. This was made clear on>the BEV site from day one. Why is that BS or some marketing>conspiracy?>>Hey, you can even rename the BEV US lc textures yourself to>get BEV EUR or BEV Africa. But then you really would only have>BEV US on other continents. Wouldn't make sense, would it?>Hence it's only fair if BEV asks money for a new product,>which BEV Europe is going to be.>>Besides, this is not a BEV forum - the BEV developers in the>BEV forum are surely willing to respond in detail to any of>your questions!>The main reason for my objecting to your posts here is that>you condemn the product by giving incorrect information about>it.>>go here: http://www.flightsim-bevs.com/smf_1-0-5/index.php>>many nice people there helping out!>>:)I think YOU misunderstand, or have been misled - and that is precisely why this issue needs to be aired and cleared - I already see BEV textures (or FScene or whatever) in my EUROPEAN flying environment. Even though I only had USA installed (obviously). But not all of my european environment has changed.However, if you believe the marketing hype (as you clearly do) then the textures are different between Europe and the USA. I say that, based on what I NOW know (and you imply in your reply) that the differences are actually based on LANDCLASS defining the mix of texturing already existing in the sim, not the textures themselves. In fact, I go further and ask the developers to state, clearly and precisely, just how many different textures ship with their `European` options. Should be simple if they are all different, just say: "They're all different". Look, I said it, so it's not hard, is it? ;)Reason being, it seems that most, if not all, of those textures are simply re-used textures from the `basic` USA texture, re-mixed according to landclass rules which neither BEV nor FScene ship with, and NOT, repeat NOT, `different` or `dedicated` textures at all. It should be easy for them to answer, as developers - easier still for them if only a few are actually changed. And that is exactly where YOU are mistaken. You assume, as I used to, that the `field` texture names are the same and the textures are changed. I say, prove it. Not you though, the developers. I think the textures are the same and only the landclass is changed to any great level. And that then raises the question - which no developer seems keen to come here and answer - that what we are paying for with multiple-meg downloads is pure BS - the same textures, again and again.If that is the case, then it is a struggle to justify the marketing decision to split the various areas when only a few - maybe 10 or a dozen - tiles are actually being changed between regions, and those are actually changing DEFAULT tiles that otherwiswe don't match with the other, earlier textures. Proof is supplied implicitly by GE, which offers worldwide, 5-season coverage in a 74 meg download. SO WHY ARE THE OTHER DEVELOPERS FILES SO BIG? Wouldn't you agree it's in the interest of consmumers to know that they are victoms of double, treble or quadruple accounting, particularly when the actual files used to define the appearance of the ground - the LANDCLASS - are not provided by the texture packages?Allcott

Hello.Well after using GE for a few days now I have decided that BEV is by far the better texture product.BEV looks much more realistic from about 1000' AGL and above and the GE textures are just too cartoonish looking in my opinion.I was never able to get GE to look anything like the photos posted on their website and there is still little to no autogen showing when using GE. I don't have this problem with BEV at all.Of course, I only fly in North America for the most part, so the texture thing outside this region is no big deal for me.I have installed all the updates with GE but it just doesn't look right.My feeling is if you own BEV going to GE might be a let down. Of course it is only $30, so it is not a huge risk to try it if you must.I have posted in most of the post about GE here and this will be my last one on this subject since the BEV vs. GE talk has been discussed without end so far.So my final verdict is, if you already own BEV, stick with it. It has the more realistic looking texture sets between the two.I eagarly await the spring texture release of BEV to comliment my current seasons!Happy Simming!Scott :-)

>I think YOU misunderstand, or have been misledsince I'm a BEV beta tester, I sincerely doubt that I would mislead myself.> - and that is>precisely why this issue needs to be aired and cleared - I>already see BEV textures (or FScene or whatever) in my>EUROPEAN flying environment. Even though I only had USA>installed (obviously). But not all of my european environment>has changed.you still don't understand - you will see parts of several continents in other continents if that part looks the same! but most of Europe in your case will display the defaults.>However, if you believe the marketing hype (as you clearly do)as I get them for free, I am not influenced by any hype.>In fact, I go further and ask the developers to state, clearly>and precisely, just how many different textures ship with>their `European` options. Should be simple if they are all>different, just say: "They're all different". Look, I said it,>so it's not hard, is it? ;)if you buy our BEV EUR textures, you will get a full replacement for all FS9 DEFAULT textures IN EUROPE. Clear enough?>Reason being, it seems that most, if not all, of those>textures are simply re-used textures from the `basic` USA>texture, re-mixed according to landclass rules which neither>BEV nor FScene ship with, and NOT, repeat NOT, `different` or>`dedicated` textures at all.In my last post I explained to you that that is NOT the case. You must have missed that part. IF you see some of BEV USA in Europe, then that's because Europe looks like the US in THAT part and NO ONE can change this because the landclass definitions are defined like that by Microsoft. Most of Europe however still has defaults.>You assume, as I used to, that the `field` texture>names are the same and the textures are changed. I say,>prove it. Not you though, the developers. I am with BEV as I told you and have been testing and running BEV textures from day 1. So is/has Holger who tried above to teach you the facts. The developer (Stephen Stever) has posted here as well.>If that is the case, then it is a struggle to justify the>marketing decision to split the various areas when only a few>- maybe 10 or a dozen - tiles are actually being changed>between regions, and those are actually changing DEFAULT tiles>that otherwiswe don't match with the other, earlier textures.>Proof is supplied implicitly by GE, which offers worldwide,>5-season coverage in a 74 meg download. SO WHY ARE THE OTHER>DEVELOPERS FILES SO BIG? Peter Wilding has answered that already. So has Stephen Stever. GE and BEV have a different approach. I will not say more.>Wouldn't you agree it's in the interest of consmumers to know>that they are victoms of double, treble or quadruple>accounting, I see. Customers have paid for the USA so they have to get the rest of the world for free, this is your reasoning? uh - huh.>particularly when the actual files used to define>the appearance of the ground - the LANDCLASS - are not>provided by the texture packages?No one ever claimed that landclass data comes with the textures. What gave you that idea?The fact that you refuse to look up the basics of FS9 does NOT make the statements of the pros like Holger or Stephen incorrect.If you believe it's a BEV campaign, ask someone like Peter Wilding. He won't tell you anything different.Or ask Cole who's also a veteran simmer over at BEV or Flight1 who is working with both BEV and Flight One. I bet he won't disagree with me.:) happy flying.

I'm sorry Tina, I simply cannot continue to discuss this with you, you are either deliberately missing the point, or incapable of understanding it. I could go through a whole charade of answering your misinformation above, including restating my case in even simpler termss so that you do actually understand it, but at the end of the day it only achieves confusion - which is after all what your'e trying to achieve, right?If not, then your lack of understanding - and your inability to accept that your `beta tester` status means absoutely NOTHING as far as your technical knowledge of the product is concerned - means that I have no reason to continue this discussion with you. And you have been misled. Not your fault. I was too. But I've wised up. I hope you will too.Allcott

>I'm sorry Tina, I simply cannot continue to discuss this with>you, you are either deliberately missing the point, or>incapable of understanding it. >>I could go through a whole charade of answering your>misinformation above, including restating my case in even>simpler termss so that you do actually understand it, but at>the end of the day it only achieves confusion - which is after>all what your'e trying to achieve, right?>>If not, then your lack of understanding - and your inability>to accept that your `beta tester` status means absoutely>NOTHING as far as your technical knowledge of the product is>concerned - means that I have no reason to continue this>discussion with you. >>And you have been misled. Not your fault. I was too. But I've>wised up. I hope you will too.>>>Allcottthis must be one of the best trolls I've ever seen ... gotta hand it to you! well done.I apologize to everyone here for not ignoring "alcott"'s troll posts. Sometimes I still believe in the "good in men" ... :for anyone REALLY interested in how BEV and GE work, follow the links mentioned above or read Holger's elaborate explanation of why alcott is talking nonsense, thanks!happy flying :)

OK, as you seem to want to disrespect rather than answer me, let's go over your last reply, shall we?>I think YOU misunderstand, or have been misledsince I'm a BEV beta tester, I sincerely doubt that I would mislead myself.OK, so you aren't `misleading`, just repeating the same old rubbish you've been fed. In other words, you're being misled.> - and that is>precisely why this issue needs to be aired and cleared - I>already see BEV textures (or FScene or whatever) in my>EUROPEAN flying environment. Even though I only had USA>installed (obviously). But not all of my european environment>has changed.you still don't understand - you will see parts of several continents in other continents if that part looks the same! but most of Europe in your case will display the defaults. OK, lets state this clearly: BEV, FScene GE and all other tetures OBEY basic FS conventions on file naming. You say it, they say it. I agree ith it. Only Golden Wings changes this. So, if that is the case then the textures that ship with, for example, BEV's USA set will re-appear in Europe. Agree so far? Not beyond your grasp? Good. Then what we want to know is how many textures in the BEV Europe set differ from the BEV USA sets. Not a difficult question for the developer to answer, unless the answer exposes what `Europe` does over the `USA` is only to change those EXTRA files that need changing for the European landclass. All the other files remain the same as the USA ones. If that is the case, then I would like an explanation of the pricing structure and why we can't just buy the marginal extra few texture sets, because that has become my major complaint after witnessing the size and scope of the GE and Fscene download. >However, if you believe the marketing hype (as you clearly do)as I get them for free, I am not influenced by any hype.As you get them for free, you are totally influenced. Your value for money is not the same as my value for money.>In fact, I go further and ask the developers to state, clearly>and precisely, just how many different textures ship with>their `European` options. Should be simple if they are all>different, just say: "They're all different". Look, I said it,>so it's not hard, is it? if you buy our BEV EUR textures, you will get a full replacement for all FS9 DEFAULT textures IN EUROPE. Clear enough? Nowhere near it. And a typical cludge answer. How many of those replacement textures are ALREADY shipped with other versions of BEV? As a beta tester you will not be in possession of that information.>Reason being, it seems that most, if not all, of those>textures are simply re-used textures from the `basic` USA>texture, re-mixed according to landclass rules which neither>BEV nor FScene ship with, and NOT, repeat NOT, `different` or>`dedicated` textures at all.In my last post I explained to you that is NOT the case. You must have missed that part. IF you see some of BEV USA in Europe, then that's because Europe looks like the US in THAT part and NO ONE can change this because the landclass definitions are defined like that by Microsoft. Most of Europe however still has defaults.Rubbish! Europe `looks like` the USA because the landclass calls the same texture file names. You are trying to draw a real-world analogy where the sim-world technical answer is different. And they are the same textures that have already been modified by BEV for use in the USA. Not the same thing at all. Not at all. All the Europe and ROW texture sets are, with a few exceptions, a re-constituted mix of the same default or aftermarket textures. And that's why those USA textures appear in Europe. I would like to know just how many DEDICATED, NEW textures are used in these regional texture sets. And I don't mind if every one is changed from the sets that have already been shipped with USA, that will put my mind at rest. BUT IF MOST OF THE TEXTURES ARE THE SAME, WHY ARE WE PAYING TWICE FOR THE SAME TEXTURES? Same texture, overwriting the same texture file name. Not two variants of the same texture because that is NOT how FS writes its textures, just the same texture we've paid twice or more for,only to end up replacing itself as part of what the developer would have us believe is a regional texture set, when no such thing exists in Flight Sim. >You assume, as I used to, that the `field` texture>names are the same and the textures are changed. I say,>prove it. Not you though, the developers. I am with BEV as I told you and have been testing and running BEV textures from day 1. So is/has Holger who tried above to teach you the facts. The developer (Stephen Stever) has posted here as well.Yes, I noticed that too. Funny it's gone all quiet from them now that awkward questions are being asked?>If that is the case, then it is a struggle to justify the>marketing decision to split the various areas when only a few>- maybe 10 or a dozen - tiles are actually being changed>between regions, and those are actually changing DEFAULT tiles>that otherwiswe don't match with the other, earlier textures.>Proof is supplied implicitly by GE, which offers worldwide,>5-season coverage in a 74 meg download. SO WHY ARE THE OTHER>DEVELOPERS FILES SO BIG? Peter Wilding has answered that already. So has Stephen Stever. GE and BEV have a different approach. I will not say more. There YOU contradict yourself, and betray your lack of knowledge - or how you have been misled. BOTH GE and BEV (seeing as how you want to draw comparisons with those two) use EXACTLY the same naming convention and installation pattern: BOTH install textures that replace the default textures by files of the same name. Therefore, if GE can do five seasons and the whole world with 74 meg, what possible justification can there be for `regional` variations that actually are nothing more than repeating the sales of the same textures on multiple occasions? I've closely observed both BEV and GE installation routines and checked file names before and after and I ca assure you that GE and BEV do NOT have a different approach. You have been misled. The only difference is that BEV offers further options for each of those renamed files. If they use that as a selling tool, why can they not answer my question about the number of texture files changed between USA and Europe?>Wouldn't you agree it's in the interest of consmumers to know>that they are victoms of double, treble or quadruple>accounting, I see. Customers have paid for the USA so they have to get the rest of the world for free, this is your reasoning? uh - huh. No, customers should get what they pay for, or be given what they understand will be supplied. It is clear FScene implies that it's USA textures are different from it's European ones, when it seems only ten or twelve texture tiles actually change, and most of those are replacement for defalt texture tile that were not changed before because the landclass calls are not relevant, or not significant, for the USA theatre. This all started as a simple enough request to verify that BEV will actually deliver a completely different set of textures for its upcoming Europe product, or else risk running the same marketing gaffe as FScene - not much to be said for re-selling you something you already own. >particularly when the actual files used to define>the appearance of the ground - the LANDCLASS - are not>provided by the texture packages?No one ever claimed that landclass data comes with the textures. What gave you that idea?That's precisely my point. Which you missed. As none of these texture sets alters the landclass data, it corroborates what I say that the textures that are used to create the look and feel of Europe over the USA are using PRECISELY the same rules as FS defaults - and that means there are no `regional` textures. The whole concept is bogus. The fact that you refuse to look up the basics of FS9 does NOT make the statements of the pros like Holger or Stephen incorrect.If you believe it's a BEV campaign, ask someone like Peter Wilding. He won't tell you anything different.Or ask Cole who's also a veteran simmer over at BEV or Flight1 who is working with both BEV and Flight One. I bet he won't disagree with me.Clearly now, you understand the basics of FS about as well as I did, before I started getting smart. I have asked what I believe to be pertinent questions and yet instead of actually providing answers the developers seem intent on ending in their bully-boy (bully-girl) is an attempt to deflect attention from the issue. That's fine, because it works just as well when it comes to raising doubts in peoples' minds. Just what are FScene and BEV trying to hide? Should be a really simple question to answer: How many different textures do your products ship with for their `regional` sets? Different from default, different from your own aftermarket sets in other areas? In other words, when we download another 112 meg, how many of those textures are actually new on my hard drive, if I possess other sets from the same developer?If you can't get the answer for that, please don't bother to reply. You're only succeeding in making yourself look like a puppet or a pawn.Allcott

Hi there,are you guys having fun?You might want to experiment with font colors and sizes to enhance different kinds of yelling: rage, frustration, general arm waiving, etc. :-mad Once people place themselves into a corner merely fishing for points to support their own assumptions, discussion becomes meaningless. That happened here a long time ago, which is why I hope this thread will fade away soon.Cheers, Holger