Silverbird

Airbus, Bombardier join forces on CSeries jet

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Basically all Boeing prompted was for more jobs to be created in them US. So good for the USA. Boeing however should instead be focused on innovation and start getting busy with the MoM aircraft that will be its bread and butter and get it done soon. One has to wonder why it's so hard to get that program started even the 747 which we did not have CAD back then was done in record setting time. So. WTH really? 

 

Back to the current convo. Boeing should start talks with Embraer so they can create a rival small regional jet and offer them to build in Charleston. Get that aircraft to be a top niche aircraft. The C series has some really popular fans. JetBlue , Delta among others are ensuring that that program can and most likely will be profitable soon for Airbus. 

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It was a great maneuver, like watching Boeing show up to play a game of checkers and found an opponent that was playing Chess instead. I agree Boeing needs to focus on what is going on within their own company as it is usually moves like the one Boeing just made that leads to a decline, similar thing happened when General Motors tried suing China for making cars and lost, and lost market share or Blackberry focused on buying NHL Hockey Teams and suing the NHL and lost market share drastically, these distractions do nothing but lead your companies into decline as R&D and Innovation should be at the forefront.

I love Boeing but the reality is no one can make enough Airplanes to meet the market demands, they all have big orders to fill. Boeing doesn't make an aircraft in the same class as the C-Series but now to their own foolishness Airbus does, and in this process they also lost an order for F-18 Super Hornets from the Canadian Government.....This is 2 big losses in one.

Boeing go back to what you do best, make great Airplanes...

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2 hours ago, warriorpilot said:

Basically all Boeing prompted was for more jobs to be created in them US. So good for the USA. Boeing however should instead be focused on innovation and start getting busy with the MoM aircraft that will be its bread and butter and get it done soon. One has to wonder why it's so hard to get that program started even the 747 which we did not have CAD back then was done in record setting time. So. WTH really? 

 

Back to the current convo. Boeing should start talks with Embraer so they can create a rival small regional jet and offer them to build in Charleston. Get that aircraft to be a top niche aircraft. The C series has some really popular fans. JetBlue , Delta among others are ensuring that that program can and most likely will be profitable soon for Airbus. 

Oh lord yes the MoM aircraft its taken forever this Boeing is definitely not the same Boeing from many years ago, that would be very interesting Embraer with Boeing.

2 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

It was a great maneuver, like watching Boeing show up to play a game of checkers and found an opponent that was playing Chess instead. I agree Boeing needs to focus on what is going on within their own company as it is usually moves like the one Boeing just made that leads to a decline, similar thing happened when General Motors tried suing China for making cars and lost, and lost market share or Blackberry focused on buying NHL Hockey Teams and suing the NHL and lost market share drastically, these distractions do nothing but lead your companies into decline as R&D and Innovation should be at the forefront.

I love Boeing but the reality is no one can make enough Airplanes to meet the market demands, they all have big orders to fill. Boeing doesn't make an aircraft in the same class as the C-Series but now to their own foolishness Airbus does, and in this process they also lost an order for F-18 Super Hornets from the Canadian Government.....This is 2 big losses in one.

Boeing go back to what you do best, make great Airplanes...

I really don't understand what the heck there thinking losing the F-18 deal from Canada and now this.

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  1. 52 minutes ago, Silverbird said:

    Oh lord yes the MoM aircraft its taken forever this Boeing is definitely not the same Boeing from many years ago, that would be very interesting Embraer with Boeing.

    I really don't understand what the heck there thinking losing the F-18 deal from Canada and now this.

    And made real long term enemies to boot. There is a lot of feeling that translate into something like: If it's a Boeing, I ain't going, even among the Canadian public. Between that, and over the top free trade muscle from the US, I am not sure even WestJet is securely in Boeings pocket anymore. We'll see, but it is on a course for getting much worse, not better, at least for a few more years. WestJet already buys Q400s from Bombardier, and with both them and Air Canada wanting Canadian public and government nationalist sentiment on their side, it could get interesting. An air Canada pilot friend of mine told me today "Heck, I would trade a yoke for a side stick any day if that is how they want to act. Bring it on! New A350s with our spanking new free trade deal with Europe! :cool: Huge Boeing and political PR nightmare up here!

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I am still floored by all of this....As Spock would say 'Fascinating' :cool:

From here on it is just dust settling but certainly interesting to watch

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1 hour ago, Matthew Kane said:

From here on it is just dust settling but certainly interesting to watch

I suspect it will be more than simply dust settling on this one, it just got a lot more political...

With an isolationist President happily entertaining Boeing's ironic attempt to gloss over the subsidies argument when everyone knows their 787 got 5 Billion in assistance and their 777 just shy of 9 Billion, it's obvious Boeing will be expecting this line of support to continue, imagining they'll have Trump in their corner on that one without making any further concessions.

But will they? Well, maybe. We've already seen Trump's simplistic grasp of both world and domestic politics upon entering the Oval office give way to the backroom boys in the US Government steering him right on the realities of matters more than once. This was a guy who was used to having people around him never say no, but it's a bit different when you have to balance so many plates and keep them spinning, making deals with your opposition, as he is rapidly learning. But fate might actually lend him a hand here...

It all looked so easy at first, the diplomatic approach from the UK with regard to Bombardier and US tariffs affecting jobs in Ireland didn't gain any traction at all with Trump because with many jobs in the UK also dependent on Boeing outsourcing, they were hardly going to be crying over a threat to job security at Bombardier in Ireland. This was the tune Trump was playing and the one US people wanted to hear too, and you can't really blame them for that. But whilst it left the UK with no decent cards to play on that score, and left Boeing thinking they had it in the bag, as we now know, Airbus had other ideas. But even this is in no way a fait accompli as our French-speaking Canadian Avsimmers might say.

Whilst on the face of it, this looks like Airbus showing Theresa May how you really play politics, it still does not mean the tariff argument is done and dusted: Ironically, now you've got Trump potentially shooting himself up the tailpipe with regard to isolationism, since to bat for Boeing, he'd have to kiss off a bunch of jobs which would be created in Alabama to build that Bombardier (or is it an Airbus now?). But if Europeans are rejoicing at the thought of this, they would do well to remember that Boeing outsources much of its production to Europe. How keen will Boeing be to continue this European job security benevolence if they have to sit there and get shafted by Europe too? This might very well offer the political lifeline Trump needs on this one.

Trump came in on a ticket largely based on domestic job creation where it was sorely needed, now he's potentially looking at another 'read my lips' scenario if he doesn't stick to that, and to do so he may very well have to tell Boeing where to get off. It won't even matter if, like Bush, it wasn't actually him advocating breaking a promise, the end result is what people judge politicians on. So, jobs in Washington and Carolina alone, or even more jobs in Alabama and may the best men and women win? We all know which one will play well with the electorate, and it won't be the option Boeing likes, but as noted, they still have a card to play, and it is that they could offer to pull back all that European outsourcing to domesticity and indulge in a bit of job creation of their own as a bargaining chip.

True patriot, love in all thy sons command, as the Canadians would put it, and ironically, as Trump would like for his own command no doubt, and he might just get it too if all of the above plays out. I'm sure anyone, including Trump, would rather be lucky than good, and he could get lucky on this one if Boeing really decide to play hardball with Europe.

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I fear all we se going to see is a trade war. Which in the end will hurt consumers over this. If Trump can comprehend what he is actually doing. So far I've seen that he really doesn't know what he is doing and is just along for the ride. With out even a full cabinet and North Korea situation the plane might be the last of his issues to focus on. Which I don't believe he can do. So Boeing might be on there own on this one. 

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Bring it on, MAGA say the 62,984,825 old folks who don't see it that way !!!!!!! :biggrin: 

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8 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

I am still floored by all of this....As Spock would say 'Fascinating' :cool:

From here on it is just dust settling but certainly interesting to watch

That pretty much says it all.

One thing for sure current events and political personages have done more to unite "the True North Strong and Free" from Victoria to St. Johns than anything else I have ever seen. Certain people may have mistaken Canadian polite civility for weakness and passivity. We will never take being bullied.

We'll see what we will see, but one thing is obvious, we have lots of friends outside the neighborhood who would like to do mutually beneficial business with us, from aircraft to fresh fruit and vegetables. Maybe it's time for a change.

Kind regards,

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5 hours ago, warriorpilot said:

I fear all we se going to see is a trade war. Which in the end will hurt consumers over this. If Trump can comprehend what he is actually doing. So far I've seen that he really doesn't know what he is doing and is just along for the ride. With out even a full cabinet and North Korea situation the plane might be the last of his issues to focus on. Which I don't believe he can do. So Boeing might be on there own on this one. 

Yes, you can be sure the speculators, financiers and bankers will do well but the consumers will come off worst as usual.

From the viewpoint of the C Series, my only concern is will this move see the dropping of any plans to develop the so-called CS500 as this would be more or less head-to-head competition for the A320? Indeed the CS300 to a degree is competing against the A319!

Bill

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Imagine what JetBlue is thinking right now. I can already see the first one being rolled out from Mobile with their colors in it. American has several MD80s to replace. This changes everything. 

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I hope this the shot in the arm needed to push Canada's politicians to finally seriously consider a non made in USA replacement for the CF-18 fleet.

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2 minutes ago, odourboy said:

I hope this the shot in the arm needed to push Canada's politicians to finally seriously consider a non made in USA replacement for the CF-18 fleet.

Sure - just develop your own...

Regards,

Scott

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21 minutes ago, scottb613 said:

Sure - just develop your own...

Regards,

Scott

I'm sure you were being tongue in cheek... but there are three European solutions that may be as good or better than a Super Hornet/F-35 solution, all of which could be assembled and/or licensed to Canada. Now that the gloves are off, Canada doesn't need to placate their friends to the south by buying American and make their decision based on what's best rather than what's politically correct..

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4 hours ago, scianoir said:

Indeed the CS300 to a degree is competing against the A319!

This was one of my first thoughts.

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2 minutes ago, Greggy_D said:

This was one of my first thoughts.

I read thst Airbus has not sold a single A319 in the last year and would welcome a competitive replacement with the CS300.

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Hi...

Personally - we're saturated with politics and arguments everywhere we go outside these walls - for many this is an escape - a diversion from the real world and the problems it contains - and discussions here should stick to our hobby - - - leaving the politics and/or nationalism at home...

Regards,
Scott

 

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IMHO, this is a hangar chat discussion about jets. ... and an interesting one!

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39 minutes ago, odourboy said:

I read thst Airbus has not sold a single A319 in the last year and would welcome a competitive replacement with the CS300.

This is true, the A319NEO has only 50 orders compared to the A320NEO having 3,327 orders and A320NEO having 1,094 orders. Basically the A319 was dead at this point. The C-Series gives Airbus an immediate new aircraft to sell, also gives the customer more confidence in ordering C-Series with Airbus backing it now.

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Personally, I'm hoping they rename it the Airbus A319.5, just for the comedy value. Actually, I wonder if Boeing have already copywritten the name 797? They could call it that, just to annoy them even more lol,

Come to think of it, that also brings up the question about what Boeing are going to do when they get past 797 in the series? 7107 or 808? I reckon they should stick with the Dreamliner convention and start giving their airliners proper names again, I can't wait to see the Boeing Thunderbird, the Boeing SuperEagle or the Boeing Skycruiser or some such, it'd be so much nicer than all those seven series numbers. :biggrin:

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This whole discussion of subsidies will probably look light weight if China starts to be a larger player. State-owned is about as subsidised as it gets. Typically, their attitude is if you don't like it, too bad.

 

 

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