Didn't get to see the other thread, so it's too bad that there are so many posts referencing it.What this thread shows me more than anything are different expectations of end-users (def: customers like me). The unfortunate part of this thread is the undrlying anger and condescension in some of the replies. Who is fit to say which expectation is "right" and which isn't?It must have something to do with the first deleted thread that I didn't see, but I can't for the life of me understand the inappropriately angry replies to the original poster who simply requested the courtesy of some follow up and informed the online store that he didn't get it and wouldn't give them repeat business. I think that is the customer's right.There is another online store that allows and promotes rude customer support to me and others, and I politely emailed them and told them that as long as this was their policy, I would not purchase from them. I don't really think they lost sleep from this, but I responded in the only way a customer has - with my credit card.Some very valid polite points have been forwarded in this thread and it seems as if some of the respondants are being deliberatively obtuse in their replies. I don't understand this desire to "win" an unwinnable argument - it's just different perspectives - so why can't the conversation remain civil?AVSIM - have an online store or not - but if the mere prospect of a store brings out this level of animosity, I hope it doesn't happen.Cheers,PD

That's not what I'm saying...lol. Read the post. IT IS THE DEVELOPER WHO IS RESPONSIBLE unless the publisher/retailer are the same person.For instance: Take us for example. We develop the software and retail it an deliver it from our site totally thus we provide the support.Now if we were to put our product in Avsim's store, Avsim would not be responsible for the support only the delivery and we are still responsible for supporting the product unless for some reason we were to make an agreement with Avsim for them to support it also. We would not have Avsim support our product so it would be stated on the product page and linked to our site for support.Why is this so hard to understand?????

As do many online stores...Unless of course the customer has built for himself a reputation as a pain in the you-know-where and/or has a suspiciously large number of items he's returning for a refund just after getting his license keys...

Simmarket will send you a response if you ask them nicely, but it may of course take more than the 5 minutes many people these days think to be the maximum time they should have to wait for anything.

Dear Tom, As usual, your insight into our hobby is why AVSIM is at the top of the heap rather than the middle. It WOULD have been nice to have a download store hosted by AVSIM, knowing that at least some product investigation had been done, and we would get a square shake on the good and bad points of this product. However, as stated, that would assume that we were dealing with 'grown up' personalities and mature adults which know that not everything is going to go their way. and understand you only get sooooo much for X number of dollars. I can't imagine how you could get a Level D motion simulator into a DVD box!Kudos, Tom. Your insight has probably saved many a AVSIM team member from pulling out their hair. Best to you and yours, Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

the main problem is not him wanting a response, that's normal, but his tone and attitude.Generally you can assume that if you're friendly you will get friendly replies and people eager to help you.If you're rude and abusive (or are known to be such from things like this original forum post) you'll not get the same level of service by far.

Michael,Some folks have blurred the lines between developer and retailer, yes. That's the main problem here.A lot of people have started cross selling through many locations making it very confusing.I think the reason though is that those retailers are using their own installer, so the original developer has no way to know what has happened to their product once it has been installed.We let Just Flight use our EGKA scenery in their flying club. They took our files and created a whole new scheme of things making it almost impossible for us to provide support. We had to direct many people back to their site for support, which they gladly provided, btw. In other isntances we were able to see what was going on and just solve the issue directy from our forums.

Jeff,In most cases Simmarket probably has the ability to ensure the products' stability llong after the original developer is gone.I do however, think that if the developer leaves the scene that the product should be pulled if they are the one providing tech support and have not made arrangements with the store they are selling through to either buy the product from them as their own, or otherwise.

The one thing about this industry unlike general retail sales is that you WILL get what you give...lol. We will teach manners around here. Some call that mentoring :-)

And that is understandable.

I thought Flight1 was the only on-line source that would give a refund for any reason. Who are the others?Doug

Nice idea Tom, but NOOOO WAY! I would love to see such an offering by AvSim, but it is more than understandable that you refused to touch this thing with a ten foot pole!Like most things there are two valid sides to this question IMHO, which handled objectively and with courtesy one would think could conclude at least with a respectful agreement not to agree.For MOST users, freeware and payware folks related to FS, I'll bet it is amazing how so few can originate or embelish a hassle within what is usually about the finest and most helpful community I have ever experienced. (And happily with this old forgetful memory I DO NOT have any individual or individuals in mind AT THE MINUTE). So if anybody thinks this stings, I wasn't talking about you....but if the shoe fits....>Keep up the good work. Most of us appreciate it!Respectfully:RTH1585368CFI

Actually Jeroen - the store IS the representative towards the manufacturer regarding basic customer rights. Whom do you contact if the radio is broken from the first minute on, or if it doesn

>maybe you don't expect unlimited and eternal support from the>online store for your purchase, up to and including>replacement with another product if the manufacturer goes out>of business.>But such demands (not requests, demands) were voiced very>loudly in the original thread and those who disagreed with>them were shouted down and called racists (how disagreeing>with someone on a store policy like that would be racist is>beyond me).I take it you live in your own little world? Nobody called you a racist. On the other hand, you did call me a "communist". I asked you if that was a variation on Godwins law on on-line arguments. Apparently you do not know what Godwins law is.I sent you a link.If you had bothered to fully read the link to Godwins law, and not just seen one word, you would noticed that it was about online etiquette, not about race.Duh.I so wish you could see what you actually look like to the rest of us, because you look like a fool.And please don't bother to try to twist this around again... you really suck at it.CheersShad

I would find it normal if a manufacturer that sells its products with extensive copy protection has made a provision to release the product without such protection when they go out off buissnesGood examples are Sim Systems (FsFlightMax & FS Garmin). Upon stopping their support they released their product for free and provided tools to enable users to install themself.As an industry example you can take Trolltech with their special regulation for the Qt-toolkit so that toolkit will always be freely availble even if the company goes bankrupt