RIGHT Tom. Dodge the bullet!!!!!!!!!!

How about all of us developers stop making downloads available? Take away their convenience since no one is able to distinguish between who's the developer, publisher, and distributor.So far NO ONE has got even those definitions correct.This reminds me of our politicians in DC trying to argue a bill...LMAO. You all argue the wrong points entirely. It's like our president going to war with the wrong info even though it was justified by other means and not telling anyone the right information...LOL. This just kills me.This seams so typical these days with any issue.It must be the darn internet. The flow if information is so fast now a days that no one can keep up...how very funny!Tom: You do what you want, don't listen to these guys saying you need to provide support for the products. Apparently no one listened to me in the other thread on how this works. Is it that hard??? I don't think so, so let me outline the proper responsibilities here right quick so everyone can understand, roger?1. Avsim download store would be responsible for the sale and delivery of chosen products by developers who can meet their requirements for contact, communication, and tech support to their customers.2. Avsim would NOT be responsible nor imply any warranties for misuse, damage or harm to customer computer equipment or otherwise resulting in the sale of said goods and/or services.3. Avsim would NOT be responsible for tech support of the product after delivery. The developer of the product is responsible for tech support.4. My favorite: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!!!! Performance may vary!6. Avsim reserves the right to pull any product from their store for ANY reason and without notice. Those reasons may be for; to many COMPLAINTS from customers due to non response from the developer, Products which DO NOT WORK, no support (tech issues relating to software not working as advertised--not features not implimented), etc., etc..Now what is a publisher, developer, vendor, distributor, and retailer???? Let's have a crack at these shall we? Just the basics for now.Developer/author: One who makes a product.Publisher: One who acts on the developer's behalf to help get their product produced and/or distrbuted for sale or otherwise. In some cases they may have creative and financial input as to the final product.Vendor: One who supplies materials to developer, publisher, and/or distributor. An e-commerce provider/bank, installer software company, server hosting company, would all be good examples of a vendorDistributor: One who supplies/wholesales retailers with the product.Retailer: One who sells product to the general public; i.e. Avsim.Sometimes these can all be the same person or company as seen in many cases in the flight sim industry. People like Flight1 and Just Flight are good examples because they also have people who develop just for them, then they sell from the same page.In Avsim's case, they would just be a retailer ONLY!!!!!!!!!Tom, many not for profit organizations have many ways in which they can and do make money in order to operate. Some even have paid staff, so don't feel bad for wanting a little back. Also don't feel bad of you feel the need to "endorse" products in your store or feel it's needed to set certain standards in order for products to be sold. These standards can include anything from quality to the history of the company itself that wish to sell with you. Many retailers select their products all the time.Tom, my main reason for supporting you and anyone else is plain and simply; we need to keep growing this hobby/industry as much as we can in order to continue to solidify the FS indsutry so we can continue and hopefully some day even make a living at doing what we all love to do. I don't think that's so bad, do you? If people want prices to drop then we have to make more faster and get new people every day into FS.Alot of what is said here shouldn't have been said in front of the general public because it does give the wrong perception that we don't care. We do care, but we can't show it in this manner through these means, because the point will never get across without seeming like the bad guy. You have to just do it. Some things just don't require everyones' input in this manner.Well, there you have it folks, here endeth the lesson. I do hope this has helped many here....lol.

Jeff, taking into account what you said, I do understand, BUT, and this is a big but, don't think this is to you (personally or otherwise)...Is what you guys are saying is that if you charge money for a product, regardless of the cost (the developer, not the vendor), your not responsible? I don't ####...####, I bought a certain california scenery that absolutely will NOT run on my computer (and I asked for support...got a sub-par answer, and didn't ask for a refund, etc), but I do except some sort of support...even if it sucks. I think that's what the original poster is trying to say...s/he may have come across wrong, or even went about it wrong, but possibly s/he didn't have any way to contact the developer directly, OR, s/he couldn't get in touch with them correctly, so he went to the next rung on the ladder.I know you guys will probably think I'm wrong, but like the second poster, who said s/he (sorry, I suck at remembering names..if you posted them) only paid 30-some odd dollars for his virus protection, and he gets free updates, etc. I do the same (only mine is completely free since the college I'm in provides it). There are companies out there that charge more than that, and still charge for updates! Yeah, so the virus company has more people. So whar? Does that make them any less responsible for their product?I'm also not a firm believer in "the customer is always right" game. I too used to deal with customers. Usually they were wrong, but even in the field I was in (automotive), we still had to stand behind what we did. Accountability is a very serious thing, and the general vibe I got from this topic is that if the product doesn't cost over an X amount of dollars, then noone needs to be responsible, which I feel isn't right.

Does anyone actually think AVSIM would sell a product that would knowingly get you fleeced? I doubt it. What seems to be asked (and expected) here is that AVSIM go from "just" providing an alternative place to purchase an addon to being even more responsible for it than the company that produced it and who should be the ones to give support on it.Look at it in these terms, I have some electronics I get at wholesale and I set up shop in my little bakery I run around the corner and sell them. While I plan to do everything to make sure I sell only quality products, it's up to you to contact Sony, GE, or what other manufacturer to get it serviced or if it doesn't work, get support. My LIMITED liability goes as far as replacing the product or giving you your money back if need be, NO MORE!I guess I have a harder time with this whole higher expectation thing as nearly all my FS purchases have gone rather well with one exception (Feelthere caravan), so I just don't get it unless you want/expect more than what you actually purchased. In this case a little research into the product goes a long way.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/tfbeta.jpg

I think perhaps, the original poster, did not get the point he was making across clearly.From my reading, his main complaint, is not that he did not get support/refunds/whatever.His main complaint is that he received no reply to emails he sent seeking assistance.Whether the item he bought was good bad or indifferent, I think all he was really looking for was the courtesy of an acknowledgement, which is not to much to ask really.Binncott

>Whether the item he bought was good bad or indifferent, I>think all he was really looking for was the courtesy of an>acknowledgement, which is not to much to ask really.I agree, that should be standard and to be honest, I have always gotten responses to any emails I have sent out, even though some did take a "gasp" day or two and I did get the occasional rude sounding one in the way it was typed (probably aftermath of the previous rude customer he had to deal with, LOL) Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/tfbeta.jpg

I guess that maybe my use if the term "support" is misunderstood. To me, there is a big difference between technical support and sales support.I am not suggesting that any software vendor/seller should warranty their products (IE unlimited technical support)- that is what you are talking about with electronics. Electronics generally fail in the first 90 days if they are going to fail. If they don't, they generally work for years. The electronics analogy would only work if TVs required you to enter a new user code every time you moved (or something like that).There are many add-ons that require NEW activation codes if you have to reinstall them. Someone has to provide that support if the company goes south. That is sales support and it is the responsibility of the entity that sold you the product.As with electronics, technical support for add ons is usually only need when they are initially installed. After that, most of the requests should be more like reactivation issues. I can think of one product that is for sale at simmarket. The service from the vendor is very spotty and they require an extensive reactivation process. The forum on their website is locked (even for registered users) and there has not been a post on it for 7 months. Should they stop selling the product? I don't know but they should at least tag it as unsupported and make sure that you can at least get the codes needed to install it and reinstall it if needed.

IMO there is something to be expected from the customer in this.He should know beforehand what he's buying, which would include finding out (if he is so interested) whether he can expect support from the manufacturer).To come back to Walmart, I'd have no problem with them selling a CD by an artist (or record company) that went out of business.I'd also have no problem with them selling me an mp3 player from a company that no longer exists. That's a throwaway item anyway, if it doesn't work out of the box Walmart replaces it, if it dies after a while you got it cheap anyway.

It was you who didn't get the point. You expect the store to be your representative towards the publisher.That's not part of your contract with the store.It's the same as going into a Walmart and demanding of them to immediately at their expense call the factory of your "made in China" FM radio that you bought for $5 and get you a new longer antenna because the supplied one can't receive your favourite SW station.

they're often the same people...Download something from a P2P site, then start screaming and swearing in support forums when you don't get the support you feel you have a "right" to.

maybe you don't expect unlimited and eternal support from the online store for your purchase, up to and including replacement with another product if the manufacturer goes out of business.But such demands (not requests, demands) were voiced very loudly in the original thread and those who disagreed with them were shouted down and called racists (how disagreeing with someone on a store policy like that would be racist is beyond me).

The difference, of course, is that Walmart will immediately refund your money if, for any reason, you aren't happy with the product.Doug

> The difference, of course, is that Walmart will>immediately refund your money if, for any reason, you aren't>happy with the product.>>Doug;)

Jeff, the electronics part was just as an example and not to encompass the complete range of products.I guess after purchasing many, many FS addons I have been lucky to not have encountered such extreme issues. Yes, I have a couple that require a new key if reinstalling, Active Camera to name one and the sevice and support from those guys has been excellent.I agree, if you need a new key, then the place you bought it from should help you out and if the company dissolves, then they should pull the product ASAP.As for the product you mention, I agree, if the product is subpar and you get no help from them, an email to Simmarket "should" get a response, either with support or the product pulled. I would think AVSIM would deal with this in a profesional manner.On the other hand, your experience with this product and it's support might also have lots to do with "your" expectations as opposed to say my expectations which could be different. These posts are a prime example that not everyone has the same issues (or expectations) with the same vendors.It's funny that this debate over vendor vs developer support has arisen. I remember a thread over at Aerosoft where basically they said that once they send their product over to say simmarket, they cease most of the support since it is bought from someone/somewhere else, which was kinda whacky IMO. Wonder if other vendors/developers feel this way.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/tfbeta.jpg

Thought I'd post an update.Late yesterday evening the author of xxxxx add-on software posted an apology in his forum for the lack of support. Better support in the future was also promised. So it appears some communication may have taken place between seller and author. Though I have no direct knowledge that it did.I'll leave you with this and write no more. All I wanted, and all I asked for, was for the seller to contact the author and find out why he was not supporting his product after he released a "test build" five months earlier. That's it. I didn't demand anything, I asked. My only regret is that the seller's customer support representative did not initially reply in a helpful manner. Regards,Richard