Hi All,I read most of the recent download store posts. Agreed with some, diageeded with others. To me, the concept is fine since there is already an Avsim hardware/software store. If Avsim does elect to step further into the download market, in my opinion, this is what should not be done.This is an exchange I had the past few days with, at this point, a to be nameless download company.My initial contact:What is the status of xx-xxx? Is this software still supported by vendor?Vendor is not responding to support forum posts or emails. Test software released January xx 2006. No new releases since.Regards Richard /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////Their reply a couple hours later:We have no info if further improvements or a new version is planned.best regards/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////My Reply:xxxxx,I purchased the program from xxxxxxxxx. What I would like is for xxxxxxxxx to contact the vendor and find out why he is not responding to emails or support posts regarding his product.Regards Richard/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////No Reply////////////////////////////////////////////////////////My Follow-up the next day:Still waiting for an update. Are you checking with the vendor?/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////No Reply/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////My Final Follow-up:Thank you for your concern and prompt reply. I will keep your customer service in mind when I make my next flight simulator purchase.Richard//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////This is a perfect example of how not to help a customer. I am just one person, but they have now lost my business.I hope the helps,Richard

Agreed. That is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about in the ill-fated thread. They sold you the product, they should support it if the vendor goes south. Of course, if the vendor is still responding to requests, they should refer you to the vendor for support. If they don't like servicing the products from defunct vendors, they should remove them from their store. Keeping unsupported add-ons in download stores, without informing the buyer that they are unsupported is a very poor business practice. It really shouldn't be tolerated by the community. I would like to see a "bill of rights" for fs customers. Every on-line store should sign on to it.I know, I know, there is this argument that for a $10-$20 purchase, you should not expect any service; however, when you are talking about add-ons for a $50 simulator, $20 is a considerable purchase - especially considering that prices are going up on payware (quality going up too) and that over the life of the sim, people may make several small purchases. Furthermore, my anti-virus protection cost $39/year with daily updates, a 1-800 support line... I also have many add-ons that cost that much if not more. IMNSHO, this argument doesn't hold water - not a single molecule.That being said, since AVSIM requires support contact info for their freeware, I am sure they will require it for their download store. Tom also mentioned that AVSIM will host their forums so they will have no excuse for bad support. If anybody can do it right, I am sure it will be AVSIM.

"Thank you for your concern and prompt reply. I will keep your customer service in mind when I make my next flight simulator purchase."And that is precisely the reason that I am inclined to vote no in our Board of Director's decision regarding opening a download store. We have neither the volunteers (let me emphasize that *volunteers*) to man the site 24/7 nor take responsibility for being your conduit to a publisher. That is akin to going to a Walmart and demanding that they tell you what MS is going to do on the next version of FS and threatening to not buy them from again if they can't answer your questions or meet your expectations in that regard. A 10% or less cut of every purchase is not worth the hassle as far as I am concerned. And, not to put too fine a point on it; I am not going to ask that any volunteer doing this for his hobby be subjected to the type of disdainful email that you just iterated.

"That being said, since AVSIM requires support contact info for their freeware, I am sure they will require it for their download store. Tom also mentioned that AVSIM will host their forums so they will have no excuse for bad support. If anybody can do it right, I am sure it will be AVSIM."You know what? Based on some of the postings I have seen in the now dead thread, and in this one already, I don't think that is even good enough. And I am of the mind to shut this Download Store idea down entirely. I, and our volunteers do not need the attitude, hassle, or angst that will surely come from some. We don't do this full time, as some other site folks do, and we are not considering this as a way to make a living, as some other sites are doing. We don't need the hassle, frankly. So, to all those that expect blood from the distributors with their purchase, thank you for talking me out of this really bad idea.

Unfortunately Tom, Well Said. I kept out of the "Dead Thread" because I saw quickly where it was going. Although I would have really enjoyed being able to download payware from Avsim since it has always been, and will continue to be the FS site I spend 99% of my time on. I completely understand you position. Good try, and a good idea that unfortunatley will probably not see the light of day because of unreasonable and ridiculous expectations from some.

"because of unreasonable and ridiculous expectations from some."Exactamento. My simple opinion? AVSIM can't be bothered. The download store could have been a boon to both the community and authors. But, that ain't going to happen, if my vote counts for anything (and I can tell you that the majority think this is a bad idea). Too many inflated expectations that come with purchases of $10 to $50 for my taste.

Although not expressed as clearly as it might have been, there was a germ of truth to one point made, and I'll use WalMart as an example here, since it was already used.Would it be ethical or reasonable for WalMart to continue selling a product in their stores, knowing that the manufacturer had gone out of business, and that there was no possible way any warranty would be honored, without notifiying the customer in advance?

Thanks Bill for affirming my decision to recommend "heck no" to the BOD. Notifying the customer in advance? Great ideal. Practicle? I don't know, but I don't want our volunteers to be subject to the expectation that they be all knowing - in advance no less.

A lot of that does happen, and really - the software that you would buy doesn't come with a guarantee either, or a warranty.And it doesn't look like it needs to, there are some companies that I hear of that lack good customer support, but they still get the customers by the drove.I feel bad for the little guys who were thinking this might of been a way for them to get a little out of the community. Most if not all of the little developers could of used the idea that I could see was being offered by AVSIM - if it had a download store.I've often wanted to give some money to an author because I thought their products were good, and all of them used paypal, and sadly my credit card (online only) is not accepted by paypal, and if I saw a nice little product for $5 I would like look at buying it. Less expectation, though not everyone sees it like that.If AVSIM were going to do a store, a one for smaller developers would of created a real niche for them, but sadly after the abuse that I saw (and I didn't see it all) I fully support Tom in vetoing the idea. Laurence

I think the point of the post was missed. Let me try explain.Had the download store said, "Let me check and see what I can find out" or "I will contact the vendor for you and have them contact you", all would have been find. However, they took that stand that it was not their problem, hence to lack of or will to look into the matter. It is for that reason that I made my decision. Exactly what should I have done? I tried all avenues of contact with the vendor with no results. I paid download company X the money they wanted for the product. I would guess company X has some type of support standards that vendors must adhere to. Since the vendor ignored my requests for assistance, I went to the seller for help, and received zero.Do you see my point that just a little bit of courtesy would have gone a long way to help. They didn't have to refund my money, be the go between with, "well he said you should do this or that". Just get involved, and make sure the vendor is supporting his product. If he does not, stop sales of the product until he does.To show you my support for the Avsim store, I have purchased some software and a great deal of hardware from Martin at VMAX. Always, and I mean always, he has been most helpful with questions or concerns. I once had a problem with the VMAX yoke and he had PFC contact me for a replacement part. Would I purchase more products from VMAX, you bet!I don't know what else to say,Richard

>"because of unreasonable and ridiculous expectations from>some.">>Exactamento. My simple opinion? AVSIM can't be bothered. The>download store could have been a boon to both the community>and authors. But, that ain't going to happen, if my vote>counts for anything (and I can tell you that the majority>think this is a bad idea). Too many inflated expectations that>come with purchases of $10 to $50 for my taste.Exactly what I was hinting at in the other thread Tom. The lines are so blurred in the community at large that many cannot distinguish between Publishers/Developers and Online Stores.The responsibilties of Publishers/Developers differs greatly from that of Online Stores but both have plenty on their shoulders. Many see Online Stores as a great idea until faced with the responsibility that comes with the territory.:-)

You have a point with the distributers that are in it for the money (That charge the devloper's sometimes upto 40% like Tom mentioned in the earlier thread.) If I understand Tom correctly (and I think I do) He's presenting this basically as a non profit venture, only charging something like 10% to recoup costs. In this case it would be unreasonable to assume there would be the resources to persue directly customer's complaints against the developers themselves. You can't have your cake and eat it to, something has got to give! If AVSIM does this, (and based on Tom's remarks it appears it may be a dead issue anyway. (Which I can't blame him after the last thread!)), either they charge full price like everyone else and hire the resources neccessary to make it a full service operation. (which doesn't make much sense with all the other distributers already available), or they provide a lower cost mechanism to handle payware, leaving most of the support to the developers. Which in theory should lower prices of payware for all of us, if the developer's doesn't have to pay the higher overhead to the distributer. Even so there is one thing that AVSIM could do that would highly encourage developers to provide decent service. That is instead of just requiring developers to have a support forum, require that it be hosted by AVSIM (Which Tom already mentioned he was willing to do for those who didn't have their own!) This way instead of posts going ignored in their own private forum, that most don't ever see other than existing customer's, it would be within AVSIM which everyone reads. If a developer wanted to retain their reputation it would behoove them to provide good service, as many more potential customer's whould be able to see how they treat their existing customer base. As I said I don't blame Tom for forgetting this whole idea after the last thread, but my vote would be a resounding YES to go ahead!!

Tom I work in retail management and myself and a colleague had a long gripe session about some great examples of "I am the customer and I am right" we had today. Needless to say I can relate and understand, no sense having volunteers that are just trying to help make the community as little better by offering their services have to deal with "unreasonable and ridiculous expectations from some".I think I now see why addon prices are climbing, it's to justify dealing with these types of customers, LOL. Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/tfbeta.jpg

And the pirates too :-)

>To show you my support for the Avsim store, I have purchased>some software and a great deal of hardware from Martin at>VMAX. Always, and I mean always, he has been most helpful>with questions or concerns. I once had a problem with the>VMAX yoke and he had PFC contact me for a replacement part. >Would I purchase more products from VMAX, you bet!>>I don't know what else to say,>>RichardYou do not need to defend your position Richard. You are completely right in both your desires and expectations. It is more than a little sad to see the same nonsense yet again over a reasonable customer requirement.No, you were right Richard, and these sour grapes and backdoor pot-shots are unbecoming.