The State of Flight Simming

[787WannabePilot 12]

The sim itself needs a new engine. 

Right now its just bandaids and little fixes to cover up the issue that its 10 + years old, and it shows.

[Sticky 267]

9 hours ago, 787WannabePilot said:

The sim itself needs a new engine. 

Right now its just bandaids and little fixes to cover up the issue that its 10 + years old, and it shows.

That's been the debate for the past 4 pages. 

Some comments have been focused of the sales of add-ons and new Avsim members to show the strength of the community. I disagree... 

I think FSW failing is far more significant than add-on sales.

If a developer is unable to invest millions into the new engines you speak of because our community is too small to ever get return on their investment, then our hobbie is doomed. Without a new sim structure/architecture, we'll just be churning the same sim butter for 20 years shoehorning add-ons.

Combat Sims on the other hand with larger communities than us are enjoying new engines and designs. 

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

1 hour ago, Sticky said:

That's been the debate for the past 4 pages. 

Some comments have been focused of the sales of add-ons and new Avsim members to show the strength of the community. I disagree... 

I think FSW failing is far more significant than add-on sales.

If a developer is unable to invest millions into the new engines you speak of because our community is too small to ever get return on their investment, then our hobbie is doomed. Without a new sim structure/architecture, we'll just be churning the same sim butter for 20 years shoehorning add-ons.

Combat Sims on the other hand with larger communities than us are enjoying new engines and designs. 

The truth, I think, is somewhere in-between.  Third party devs will respond to the market as far as they can which will do much to keep the market healthy.  However, I agree that the limitations of the underlying sim are going to be a factor in the long run and I note that P3D has been chasing X-Plane on some core features...64-bit, sloped runways, day and night lighting.  The trick is that the sim shouldn't get *too* beholden to the 3rd party devs such that it slows down progress.  That's probably been impacting P3D these days. 

Gregg

[Wobbie 938]

I really think, that once the sim engine is there, it is up to both freeware & payware developers to flesh it out.

As we have seen, there is no Holy Grail out there. We spent fortunes on the engines & hardware just to 'chase the hound' & we end up bitchin' at a departed sim that the majority of us never invested in.

[JNS 106]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 3:19 PM, shivers9 said:

If you base you trust on Forums and get your news from CNN,CBS,NBCand ABC then you are pretty much going to worry that #1 Flight Simming in coming to an end and......

#2 It does not matter...The world is coming to an end.

Think about it....If Flight Simming is a "dying" market then why would someone like DTG borrow or invest vast amounts of money in this project. They have been suspected of not being the sharpest knife in the kitchen but they must have seen a chance to pick up a lot of nickles and dimes from someone.

I'm not necessarily saying I think it's dying, but I do think it could be a lot stronger now if earlier on some things had been done differently (I also question whether ii was good judgment for MS to design each version with future equipment so much in mind rather than making it work well for the current buyer at the time.  Toss-up on that one, maybe) and if currently more people were willing to pay more for what they are asking for.

Jeff

Edited April 25, 2018 by JNS

[JimmiG 244]

21 hours ago, Sticky said:

That's been the debate for the past 4 pages. 

Some comments have been focused of the sales of add-ons and new Avsim members to show the strength of the community. I disagree... 

I think FSW failing is far more significant than add-on sales.

If a developer is unable to invest millions into the new engines you speak of because our community is too small to ever get return on their investment, then our hobbie is doomed. Without a new sim structure/architecture, we'll just be churning the same sim butter for 20 years shoehorning add-ons.

Combat Sims on the other hand with larger communities than us are enjoying new engines and designs. 

Very few developers write their own engine from scratch these days. Only a small handful of engines actually dominate in PC gaming.
Licensing one of those combat sim engines might be the way forward.

[jon b 2,047]

I've been simming since the days of Mig alley ace,Solo flight and flight simulator II on the commodore 64, however having two children have meant that I've been away from the hobby since about 2009.

Returning to the fold just 3 months ago I've been absolutely blown away by the sims available now, I find myself just sat swearing at my screen in utter amazement at what I'm seeing. My initial plan was just to run Xplane 11 as it had a good simulation available of an aircraft I need to familiarise myself with in the future for real world flying. However, needless to say I couldn't help myself and have inow nstalled a massive P3D set up full of orbx, active sky ,A2A, PMDG ,FSlabs etc, but also DCS and Aerofly.

I have to say although I'm not really into military aviation and shooting things using DCS as a "peacetime" simulator and just flying the high performance jets over mountains and through valleys has given me the most realistic feeling of actually flying an aircraft on a PC I have ever experienced. And then of course there's VR, I don't think I will ever forget the first time I put on the headset and flew an A10C out of Nellis  over the Hoover Dam, and how my stomach actually felt the negative G as I pushed the nose down to fly low over the water. VR actually gives me a bit of nausea so I don't use it for very long at a time, but never before have I felt such realism and immersion from a simulator, and I use multimillion dollar level D sims. When I'm in DCS VR I'm not gaming or simming I am actually being a pilot for real, I'm checking my engine instruments, fuel load and nearest airfield all the time as I'm actually there and experiencing a crash in VR isn't something I want.

If youre reading this and haven't tried DCS, it's a free download you have to try it for yourself,even if all you do is circuits in the mustang you'll be amazed by it's realism and immersion, way ahead of the civilian sims. True you cant fly airliners from your local field across the world, but for a quick fix of real flying it's unbeatable in my view.

And what can I say about X plane 11?, I was up last night flying over Orbx's Chicago at dusk in the  Vflyteair twin Comanche, just stunning! and once Orbx's true earth England is out we will have surely the best VFR simulator experience known to man.

So all in all having returned to the hobby I'd say things in general and the quality of add ons available are much better now than when I left. Each sim platform offers its own flavour and I enjoy sampling everyone of them depending on my mood or a particular idea I have for a flight.

Things have changed a little since I left with the price of complex aircraft rising considerably , provided they live up to their promise, and most have, I don't have a problem with  that and am happy to support the developers and their work in giving us these hugely complex machines, long may it continue. There does seem to be a few small single piston's creeping up in price also which surely can't take the same development hours to make as a fly-by-wire airliner so does sort of look as though its a case of developers trying their luck a bit by charging a premium for a rather "lite" aircraft. (I'm not talking about A2A here when I mention single pistons, their machines are simply first class and worth every penny)

A couple of things have disappointed me with present day sims, which I would have hoped to have been sorted. Firstly I recently bought a P3D light piston twin for old fashioned steam dial  IFR practice only to find that the HSI needle jumped in 1 degree blocks and wasn't smooth at all, making it useless for the purpose I bought it for. It's probably just this particular add on to be fair but for $40 in 2018 I'd expect  better. Secondly I notice there's still a bit of leap frog going on with sim platforms and hardware, where a program is developed to run smoothly for a future, not present day machine. The trouble is by the time that future machine is released the next version of the sim is released which everyone moves to and so is then back at square one.

Sure the cost of simming is rising but compared to other hobbies, well certainly mine at least, it still offers by far the best entertainment value per $ available.

So in short having been away and recently come back, I find the state of simming to be the most vibrant, detailed and expansive experience it's ever been.

 

All the best

Jon

 

 

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

55 minutes ago, jon b said:

And what can I say about X plane 11?, I was up last night flying over Orbx's Chicago at dusk in the  Vflyteair twin Comanche, just stunning! and once Orbx's true earth England is out we will have surely the best VFR simulator experience known to man.

Yeah, having set aside simming, I've spent more time surfing YouTube videos of the various sims as a way of keeping up with what's happening and taking a more objective look.  X-Plane looks much more impressive than it did last time I tried it (about 15 years ago).  Also, it seems that study-level GA planes are getting some good attention (as are some very high-quality commercial).  The lighting, reflections, textures and sloped runways look amazing and the fact that it comes with a very nice implementation of a G1000 is a plus.  I'm keeping my P3D setup, though (a lot of investment there).

 Gregg

[cleonpack93 79]

I just want to address the idea that the flight sim community is "aging and shrinking." Believe me, it's not!

I'm 25 years old and just really getting into it over the past 2 years. Not going away any time soon.

Also, a lot of the younger simmers (like even younger than me) are mostly hanging out on Facebook. There are two P3D user groups on Facebook, one of which has over 10,000 members and the other about 9,000, which are very very active with young kids who sim.

Flight sim isn't going anywhere.

[cleonpack93 79]

Also, to address why I think the demise of FSW is not at all a harbinger of doom.

The problem with DTG in my opinion is that they don't really seem to understand the concept of a simulator. You'll remember they made such a big deal about the fact that they own the rights to the entertainment market of the MSFS core platform. They are in it to develop games, not simulators. Their product was marketed towards gamers. The problem is that trying to create a half simulator, half game hybrid is not enough to satisfy either market. If you want to make a game, don't try to make it a simulator, make it exciting and fast-paced or strategy based. If you want to make a simulator, go all-in on immersion and realism and make it add-on compatible.

They did the same thing to Train Simulator. I owned Microsoft Train Simulator back in the day and it was amazing. The only really great train simulator ever made. DTG's newer versions have the same issues as FSW: they are trying too hard to reach the gamer market and as such are losing the simulator community.

It seems that the majority of us are not here for a game. We're hobbyists. We're here for realistic simulation, and just like how I once spent several years building a model train layout with my grandpa, we would rather spend the time and money on a professional simulator that allows us the freedom and ability and detail to make it as realistic as we can try to get it, than a watered-down game. They failed to understand that from the community, and failed to understand the desire of the community for them to be open to the already existing infrastructure, and that is why they failed. Not because there are not enough new simmers.

Edited April 26, 2018 by cleonpack93

[Sticky 267]

46 minutes ago, cleonpack93 said:

I just want to address the idea that the flight sim community is "aging and shrinking." Believe me, it's not!

I'm 25 years old and just really getting into it over the past 2 years. Not going away any time soon.

Also, a lot of the younger simmers (like even younger than me) are mostly hanging out on Facebook. There are two P3D user groups on Facebook, one of which has over 10,000 members and the other about 9,000, which are very very active with young kids who sim.

Flight sim isn't going anywhere.

Great to hear! I got into this addiction..err, I mean hobby as a child with my Tandy 1000.

Forgive my attitude, but these days those Facebook counts are really reliable. With all the trickery going on I bet the real number is 25% of those.

However, I hope you and others are right.  I do need as explanation why hasn't any invested in a new sim equal to FSX. I know there's is AF2, but it's not an equal.

If there are truely 10,000 out there who will spend $70 on a FSX equivalent, that's only $700,000. Not enough...I don't think anyway...it cost more than that just in development.

So basically, yes the community is alive but not enough to bring us what we'll need over the next 10 years.

My opinion, I could be wrong.

[Sartanius 399]

1 hour ago, cleonpack93 said:

It seems that the majority of us are not here for a game. We're here for realistic simulation, and would rather spend the time and money on a professional simulator than a watered-down game. They failed to understand that from the community, and failed to understand the desire of the community for them to be open to the already existing infrastructure, and that is why they failed. Not because there are not enough new simmers.

I completely agree with most of this, Connor.  It's fair to say the "community" is made up of those who join forums like Avsim, and others... places where the serious simmer can explore all aspects of realistic flight simulation.  However, if we could see marketing data that showed sales to the "serious simmer" vs. sales to gamers, we'd likely be surprised by how relatively few of us serious simmers there are percentage-wise.  I can understand the market push to gamers since they are likely the largest consumers.  Businesses need to make a return on their investments.  Our best bet going forward, IMHO, is Prepar3D since Lockheed's target consumer is definitely the serious simmer.  LR and XP11 are in the mix as well, but it's difficult to understand what the mix of user types there are for that platform.

A company that sets out to develop a new, realistic simulation platform dedicated to serious pilot types (not gamers) will have a long development path, and unfortunately a relatively low target population, all things considered.  Not saying it can't, or won't be done, but would love to see the business case.

Regardless, I am very happy with where we are now.  I get complete enjoyment simulating commercial airline operations using some incredibly realistic aircraft and amazing scenery.  I have plenty to do while we wait to see what the future brings.

[Wobbie 938]

Not every simmer wants to fly 'by the numbers'. Some of us just enjoy the immersion of flying, be it fact or fictional. That does not make us lessor simmers.

[cleonpack93 79]

12 minutes ago, Wobbie said:

Not every simmer wants to fly 'by the numbers'. Some of us just enjoy the immersion of flying, be it fact or fictional. That does not make us lessor simmers.

Please take the intention of my post very clearly. At no time did I say that people who aren’t here for extreme realism are any less welcome. All I’m saying is that the vast majority of us do seem to be that way. And therefore, when DTG tried to create a program that didn’t allow for that, they lost out on a very large number of customers. Failing to understand their target audience was their downfall.

[fs4fun 366]

1 hour ago, cleonpack93 said:

The problem is that trying to create a half simulator, half game hybrid is not enough to satisfy either market

So true, DTG didn't seem at all clear on who their audience was. I don't know how they figured a sim with only piston props, VFR and dated looking scenery was going to be a big seller within a year of release. Based on how they were operating I assumed they were in no big hurry to ramp up sales but apparently the business expectations were quite different and the funding got pulled (or at least that's what I assumed has happened -- I hope we'll find out the real story some day).