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Cessna- DC - Rest of The Story

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Cessna- DC - Rest of The StoryWhile some who have no clue were advocating shooting down a small Cessna that strayed into DC airspace recently, we are now learning part of the rest of the story. Looks like the Pilots and the Authorities made the correct call yet again by not shooting it down. Well Done.Of course that didn't stop all kinds of false and misleading information being spewed all over the airwaves and internet.It seems the Student Pilot will face no repercussions, and the Instructor was issued an emergency revocation, even as his lawyer says he should only get 30 - 90 days revocation, which he can appeal. Now for the interesting part. While some here said the Aircraft apparently ignored ATC Instructions, no one here contemplated whether something else was possible. Much easier to place blame when you don't wait for the facts.It seems the Blackhawk wrote down the frequency on a sign, to display to the cessna, only some other ELT (Electronic Locator Transmitter) on the ground was activated and thus was jamming the frequency. Sure glad I stayed out of that thread, waiting for data such as this to filter out, which it usually does. ;-)Now the local agencies are stating they don't know where the errant ELT was broadcasting from. How stupid is that?An Article is located here:http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/24/politics/24plane.htmlNow Notice how Reuters ignore the ELT part:http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?t...storyID=8579735Nor does ABC:http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=783982I guess Ignorance is bliss...I am of the opinion that GA poses the smallest threat to DC, and the punishing airspace restrictions should be lifted.There are far more easier ways to infiltrate our cities besides using an Aircraft that can be tracked vs. using a GEO Metro or a small truck that most likely cannot be tracked.More common sense needs to be applied to our security, instead of punishing general Aviation until it no longer exists. Then we will only have the Jumbo jets which have been used before.Radar can track aircraft, and in most cases no one is tracking Geo Metros or small trucks or RV's. No one is stopping them though. Anyone want to compare useful load on a Winnebago vs. a Cessna. :-lolWe don't need more legislation on GA or restrictions, we need the moronic press and congressional legislators to stop grandstanding the ignorance they spew everytime this happens. I say Release GA from the grips of unnecessary regulation, and restriction so these types of events no longer occur. Eliminat ethe Zones and let's get our countrys GA Commerce going again.Can't track an ELT, how stupid is that. Sheesh....Of course also relevant is the pilots statement and this snippet:http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/200...3statement.html"Although our radio had been working during the flight, which we know, because we were able to monitor other aircraft communications, we were unable to communicate with the Blackhawk helicopter on the frequency indicated. A helicopter crew member used hand signals to indicate a second frequency option. We tuned to that frequency, identified our aircraft, and requested further instructions. We received no response on either of the indicated frequencies despite repeated attempts by both of us."Read the rest of the above joint statement by the pilots, where they do state they were eventually able to communicate to the helicopter.Thank Goodness for AOPAhttp://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2005/050517adiz.htmlAnd this is an Ad some of you may or may not have seen. This is How GA responds.http://www.aopa.org/usatodayad.pdfIt is sweeps month and I guess the LSM advertisers will have to pay more now due to the lame coverage of this that I saw.Now let's see if the lame stream press reports the rest of the facts tomorrow or just ignores it. Hmmm, we'll see.Regards,JoePS - Now it seems a Plane form Canada violated DC Airspace today, but let's see if the LSP reports this part:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto.../International/"

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From the FAADate Posted: May 23, 2005FAA Statement Regarding the Emergency Revocation of the Airman Certificate of Hayden L. Sheaffer, Pilot of the Cessna 150 Aircraft that Violated the National Capital Region's Restricted Airspace on May 11, 2005The U.S. Department of Transportation's Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on Friday evening issued an emergency revocation of the airman certificate of Hayden L. Sheaffer, who was the pilot in command of the small Cessna 150 aircraft that violated the restricted airspace around the nation's capital on Wednesday, May 11, 2005. A copy of the emergency order has been released pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act request.Mr. Sheaffer will be required to surrender his certificate immediately to the FAA and will not be permitted to fly for a minimum of one year. At the conclusion of one year, Mr. Sheaffer may apply for a new certificate, which may be issued only if he passes a written and a practical test. Mr. Sheaffer has a right to make an immediate appeal to the National Transportation Safety Board.The FAA has determined that no action is warranted against the aircraft's passenger, who holds a student pilot certificate." aopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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I read pilot's statement. It is absolutely remarkable. So they went 'extra miles' around Camp David but thought flying over the White Houese was perfectly OK. It did not seem odd to them. Plus they reviewed charts and did not see anything. I wonder how old the charts were. It is a remarkable admission of dumbness.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

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According to the FAA, Sheaffer, 69, wasn't even supposed to have a passenger in the single-engine Cessna in the first place. He hadn't met the requirement to do so: three takeoffs and three landings within the previous 90 days of the flight. He didn't take the most basic steps required of pilots before flying a plane, the FAA said. He failed to check the weather report before leaving Smoketown, Pa., and he didn't check the FAA's "Notices to Airmen," which informs pilots of airspace restrictions and how to respond to a military aircraft. When he got lost, he didn't call air traffic control or a flight service station to establish his location, which was 40 to 45 miles south of where he actually was, the FAA said. Source: ABC's report

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>>I am of the opinion that GA poses the smallest threat to DC, and the >>punishing airspace restrictions should be lifted.I agree with you. I get deeply irritated at the suggestion that anything and everything just might contain a dirty bomb or some other paranoia inducing device.There is also always another side to a story. The 30 day rule is broken on a regular basis (usually through ignorance) and it isn't unheard of for pilots to use out of date charts. HOWEVER, I still don't think there is any excuse, the pilot really should have realised where he was heading. The aviate, navigate and then communicate cycle is sheer common sense, but again, many pilots let this break down when struggling with the radio.He is representative of a small but not insignificant percentage of pilots who aren't quite as rigourous as maybe they should be. Unfortunately in his case he got caught out in the most embarrassing of circumstances. He should be receive a license endorsement and a fine with maybe a suspension. Something to remind other pilots to keep their game upto scratch.

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Wouldn't it have been pretty obvious to see where he was if he had just LOOKED OUT OF THE WINDOW ? I mean, surely Washington D.C. is somewhat difficult to miss ?!!Chris Low.

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>>It seems the Student Pilot will face no repercussions, and the Instructor was issued an emergency revocation, even as his lawyer says he should only get 30 - 90 days revocation, which he can appeal.Since you're always such a stickler for keeping the facts straight, you might like to know that Mr. Sheaffer is not a CFI. AOPA made the following comment almost two weeks ago: Contrary to media reports, neither man is a flight instructor.

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This incident suggests that a pilot who ignores the 90 day rule is likely to ignore other, more important, rules.Interestingly, The Globe and Mail report says:Though hundreds of people have mistakenly flown into Washington's restricted airspace, the FAA rarely revokes a pilot's licence for such an offence. In Mr. Sheaffer's case, the agency determined he

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Quote from the pilots' statement:At this point, for the first time, we were able to visually identify our location as being in a Flight Restricted Zone (FRZ).This after being intercepted by a helicopter then two F-15s.

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>Radar can track aircraft, and in most cases no one is tracking>Geo Metros or small trucks or RV's. No one is stopping them>though. Anyone want to compare useful load on a Winnebago vs.>a Cessna. :-lolSomething to keep in mind: Most of these "protected" buildings have some sort of vehicle barrier system around them. These barriers are mormally designed and placed to keep a certain size vehicle, carrying a certain amount of explosives, a predetermined distance from the building. A vehicle barrier system will have no effect on an aircraft, unless it tries to taxi into the building. Since it can get so much closer to the "target", it wouldn't need to carry as much as a vehicle. That's one reason that aircraft get so much attention, no matter the size.

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Thank You, I hadn't caught that point, and then for him to leave the student pilot flying. Yowsa.....aopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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Bob, the amount of buildings with barrier protection is miniscule compared to the total, IMHO, and any building that accepts deliveries by truck is a target greater than a cessna flying towards any of them.It's all pretty hypocritical to me, as I see any building that holds hundreds of people to be a target and then people get needlessly bent out of shape over a small aircraft.It wasn't a small aircraft that caused 9/11, it was the inept security of the large airlines that was partial to the cause. Thankfully that risk has been a bit minimized, yet it is GA who is continually punished, not commercial Aviation, since they bring in the bucks, and we're an easier target for the morons in congress, to deflect the cause away from them, and put fear into GA instead, IMHO.Regards,Joeaopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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>Bob, the amount of buildings with barrier protection is>miniscule compared to the total, IMHO, and any building that>accepts deliveries by truck is a target greater than a cessna>flying towards any of them.The "important" buildings ARE protected. And trust me, any delivery vehicles are searched before they're allowed in. Although many of these barriers are "disguised" for aesthetic reasons, they're there. :)

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Newsflash bob, it's not the building I care about, it's the people.So as far as important, I'll still put a priority of people over some dumb building any day of the week. YMMV though... :-)Yeah the terrorists are really out there lining up their Cessna's all over the world huh...Nope still using car and truck bombs last time I checked. Gee I wonder why that is Bob...The risk is simply not really there, IMHO, and they are attacking the easiest target that gains news for their agenda of shutting down GA, IMHO.Then when they do that, maybe all our pilots will come from foreign countries. Yeah that's lowering the risk. They are nothing but Hypocrites banning GA Flights while allowing all sorts of other commerce. But I guess UPS, FedEX, and DHL all have a bigger lobby, ie unions and such, huh?Even the FBI considers the greatest risk in Domestic Terrorism is not by some aircraft, or little Cessna's, according to John Lewis of the FBI.. I'll see if you can figure out where the FBI consdeirs the Greatest Threat currently. :-)aopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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News flash to YOU, sonar - there are PEOPLE in these buildings. If part of the building falls on them, people will get hurt. And it's the people and other stuff inside the buildings and other facilities that's important. I'm not trying to get in a pissing match with you, but just trying to help you understand something that you obviously don't. When you insist that there is no threat from a Cessna 150, you're mistaken. These things may not seem important to you, but there ARE many of us out here, who have to look at it from as many angles as we can. If you think that a light plane can't be loaded with enough bad stuff to do some severe damage, you need to do a little studying. What do you see happening in other parts of the world, when the suicide bombers use small cars, or even motorcycles to carry out their missions? Can a motorcycle carry more payload than a Cessna 150? (Yeah, maybe some can :)) We're not talking about truckloads of fertilizer here. You must be aware that you can do a LOT more damage with something that will fit in a suitcase. I think you can fit one of THOSE in a Cessna or a light helicopter, can't you? Look what can be done by someone just carrying it on their person.Whether the terrorists are lining up their Cessnas right now, or not, I don't know. But it IS clear that many of them have a great interest in GA. Why is that - are they just flying enthusiasts?Bottom line is, if your line of work was dealing with these situations, and how to prevent them, you'd probably understand why things are done the way they are. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and complain about how things are done when you don't know what you're talking about.BTW - I've been in the AOPA since 1995. I'm not in favor of restricting GA anymore than you, or any other member, but I AM in favor of keeping us safe. People have to be smart about how they do business, and if that means knowing something about the person you're teaching to fly, or renting a plane to, so be it. And, there is certainly a need for airspace restrictions, around certain areas and facilities. No one is trying to kill GA. The only ones that could possibly do that are the idiots like those who took the sightseeing trip over DC, and those who innocently insist that there couldn't possibly be a threat. I know it's hard to imagine when you watch the TSA in action, but there ARE some people in other organizations out there who really DO know what they are doing. :)

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I'm with you on this Sonar. This whole terrorist threat has expanded into something similar to mass hysterior. I wet myself over the recent incident of a dildo mistaken for a pipe bomb.

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I think the main point Sonar is trying to make is that GA is no more a threat than motor vehicles. As you say, pretty nasty weapons can be fit in a suitcase and a motorcycle can carry even that. Aircraft are more easily tracked than motor vehicles and there are less aircraft than cars. I agree, we need to keep ourselves safe, but some people are looking at paranoid levels of action. One congressman, shortly after 9/11, tried to pass abill requiring ballistic barriers between pilot and passenger in ALL aircaft (including private light-GA aircraft).There are organizations seeking to destroy GA. Stop The Noise is one of them (they asked for aircraft tail numbers to be 24 inches tall instead of the usually 12) though they're less about terrorism. Although the action I mentioned above they tried to pass of as enhancing security if I recall (a page out of Chicago Mayor Daley's book? :-hah).On another note. AOPA has the article on the revocation of that pilot's certificate on their frontpage. He can get it back after one year if he goes back through the training. The 8-page FAA report summed it up this way: "Your operation of civil aircraft N5826G under these circumstances demonstrates either a complete disregard or lack of understanding of basic requirements for the safe operation of aircraft," the letter said. "These failures establish that you lack the qualifications necessary to hold an airman certificate."I can't imagine the fines with these violation (Don't ya love how the FAA overlaps things?)[ul][li]FAR 61.57(a). Acted as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying a passenger without having made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days.[/li][li]FAR 91.103. As pilot in command, failed to familiarize himself with all available information concerning that flight.[/li][li]FAR 91.13(a). Operated an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.[/li][li]FAR 91.131(a)(1). Operated an aircraft within Class B airspace without receiving an ATC clearance or establishing and maintaining two-way radio communication with the ATC facility controlling that airspace.[/li][li]FARs 73.83 and 91.133(a). Entered a prohibited area without having the permission of the using or controlling agency to do so.[/li][li]FAR 91.139©. Operated an aircraft within the designated airspace defined by an issued notam without complying with the authorizations, terms, and conditions prescribed in the regulation covered by the notam.[/li][li]FAR 99.7. Operated the aircraft in an air defense identification zone (ADIZ) without complying with special security instructions issued by the administrator in the interest of national security and that are consistent with appropriate agreements between the FAA and the Department of Defense.[/li][/ul]----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

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I agree with you on that, John. There are those who are way overboard on both sides of the debate. Those who want to kill GA, and those who claim there is no threat. All we need is for people to use due caution and vigilance. That's all it takes. Like I said, I don't think that so many people, with terror group connections, are taking such a great interest in GA just because they love to fly, or go sightseeing.

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>>those who claim there is no threat.That's me that is :) Of course there is a threat, just not to the extent that living in fear of C152 bombers would suggest.

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Paranoia(extreme irrational distrust of others) is alive and well in the USA. jack wilson

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