Hello guys,

been wanting to ask something regarding "hickups" long time ago since I did not find any useful information by searching.

For start: I did the switch from FSX:SE to P3D with the release of P3Dv4 point at which I also purchased the NGX for P3D!

My issue: The NGX is the only ACFT I'm experiencing "hickups" (sudden and short massive FPS drops). When it happens some of the displays dim themselves (all MCP displays: HDG, ALT, CRS... and the clock). These hickups happen for example when I first call up the ATC window, or when resizing and relocating the ATC window. They also happen from time to time inflight (can't tell if in random or regullar timeframes).

I do fly other "FPS heavy" ACFT but don't experience such issues.

By any chance this has been reported already? Do you guys have this?

 

Thank you.

BR,

Gerald

48 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

These hickups happen for example when I first call up the ATC window, or when resizing and relocating the ATC window.

This is a default function of the sim. We have no interaction with this, so I'm not sure how someone would make the massive logical leap to it being a PMDG problem.

48 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

By any chance this has been reported already?

Nope.

48 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

Do you guys have this?

Also nope.

15 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

This is a default function of the sim. We have no interaction with this, so I'm not sure how someone would make the massive logical leap to it being a PMDG problem. 

Kyle I'm not quite sure if you got my point....

I open the NGX and power it up.

I call up the ATC window and the FPS drops for ~1s to almost zero while the MCP displays go dim.

If I play with the ATC window (resizing / moving) I get the same response from the sim (FPS drop + dimmed displays).

Why it could be related to the NGX? Because I don't have any issues with e.g. FSL or AS CRJ.

1 minute ago, GEKtheReaper said:

Kyle I'm not quite sure if you got my point....

No, I actually do get it.

When you call up the ATC window, weird stuff happens to the sim, frame-rate-wise. Your first post implied that it is only to do with our aircraft (as you'd written you had checked in other complex planes).

The ATC window is drawn by the sim, and our aircraft has no interaction with that function, though. None of our processes tie into it at all. Are you using any other programs? Modified shaders?

2 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

Why it could be related to the NGX? Because I don't have any issues with e.g. FSL or AS CRJ.

I find this a bit hard to believe, but if you'd like us to look into it, then I suggest submitting a ticket so that it has proper tracking and visibility.

6 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

When you call up the ATC window, weird stuff happens to the sim, frame-rate-wise. Your first post implied that it is only to do with our aircraft (as you'd written you had checked in other complex planes). 

Correct! The FSL would be one of the heavier ACFT where I don't have these drops.

7 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

The ATC window is drawn by the sim, and our aircraft has no interaction with that function, though. None of our processes tie into it at all. Are you using any other programs? Modified shaders?

I understand that the ATC window is drawn by the sim.

This behaviour does not show if I call other windows like GSX or Active Sky command windows.

Q: Are these windows other then the ATC window?

Also keep in mind that I have these issues from time to time inflight aswell (the ATC window thingy is something I can reproduce 100% of the time)

To answer your additional Q: Yes, I do use ENVSHADE since it's release, the behaviour was there also without it.

11 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

I find this a bit hard to believe, but if you'd like us to look into it, then I suggest submitting a ticket so that it has proper tracking and visibility.

I will record a video to show the behaviour (also comparison to other ACFT). If you consider afterwards that it is indeed something odd happening, I will open a ticket to the support.

4 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

Q: Are these windows other then the ATC window?

I wasn't aware that Active Sky had something similar to the ATC window. I know they have the 2D radar panel that you can put into planes, but nothing like the ATC window, which is sim-driven.

GSX utilizes something similar...I think but I can't say for sure. I haven't used it in a while.

I'm still at a loss as to how the ATC window would be at all tied to our plane, specifically. It could be an issue where you're just really getting to the limits of your processing power with the NGX, and the ATC window is just putting you over the edge. Looking at your signature, your computer is certainly capable, but depending on your settings, and the area (in Europe, I'm assuming, where you have your UTX, and I'm assuming a bunch of ORBX stuff), you could be over the limits...kinda limited on RAM, and it's slowish RAM, too.

 

There is a topic in the LM P3D forum regarding loss of frame rate with opening ATC window.  Has nothing to do with PMDG or any type of aircraft.

Edited July 18, 20187 yr by downscc

Hello Kyle ( @scandinavian13 ),

as promissed attached 2 links to a comparison video between the NGX and the FSL A319.

****1 correction at the beginning: the FPS drop happens with ALL the opened windows (ATC/GSX/ASPv4)***

First video shows the NGX:

- parked at Gate 202 at EDDM (T2G Scenery)

- with all my AddOns running.

- VC 40 FPS, outside 50FPS (no stutters)

Issue: The first time I call up the ATC window, the FPS will drop from 40 to 4!!! Resizing the window will drop the FPS from 38 to mostly around 7.

https://youtu.be/J3C8gPAU-Vc

 

Second video shows the FSL A319 in the same configuration. Again steady FPS in the VC (~33) and outside ~48.

The first time I open the ATC window the FPS will drop from 33 to 18 (but noticeable shorter). Resizing the window will not drop the FPS below 24 (from 33). Resizing also goes in an instant with no noticeable delay.

https://youtu.be/PUqNcWFPv88

 

To conclude: Yes, playing with the windows (regardles which one) will result in a FPS drop BUT the drop with the NGX is ~32 FPS (resulting in a pause in the sim) and the drop with the FSL about 9 FPS (goes unnoticed).

Edited July 18, 20187 yr by GEKtheReaper

I also have these hickups at a specific in Sim time, where the lightning switches from day to night (i presume). Then the integrated background lightning and the MCP digits flash yellow for a sec. and the FPS drop to smth like 4. 

Have this behavior since ages and no addon or any other config changed it.

 

Regarding the problem with windows like ATC;

I do not have them when calling the GSX panel only when selecting something. The other Windows are useless to me and therefore never touched or called.

The different FPS drops are indeed interesting.

On 7/19/2018 at 1:04 AM, 30K said:

I also have these hickups at a specific in Sim time, where the lightning switches from day to night (i presume). Then the integrated background lightning and the MCP digits flash yellow for a sec. and the FPS drop to smth like 4. 

Yes! I have those to! Whenever something in the sim changes e.g. going from day to night, the NGX will cough.

IMHO the NGX is way to "heavy" on the system.

 

Stil wayting for an opinion / answer from Kyle.

4 hours ago, GEKtheReaper said:

Yes! I have those to! Whenever something in the sim changes e.g. going from day to night, the NGX will cough.

1

Should have mentioned that I have them once per flight. Like at one specific tipping point in the sim otherwise it runs smoothly.

Changing from day to night I see those freezes maybe 5 times in a 1,5h flight. At daytime maybe less the 3 times (i gues they occur when the sim is buisy...). The rest of the time I have a preety smoth flight and that's why I didn't wanted to make a big deal out of it.

I hoped that PMDG would have a look into it given the fact that VR users have also some "white box issue" due to a caption window.... Maybe a last optimization run before the NG3 update or at least a recompile with the latest SDK....

@scandinavian13 So basicaly: If the NG3 is still far far away then PLEASE PMDG try a short optimisation of this ACFT.

8 hours ago, GEKtheReaper said:

the NGX is way to "heavy" on the system

Definitely not. The NGX is about a decade old, it runs perfectly on almost everyone‘s system. If you have issues with the NGX then you will have to optimize your system. Regarding FSL: their airplanes are actually no comparison to the 737 as they use new technology regarding system optimization. They actually take control of your CPU cores and so on and modify them to run smooth. The NGX is quite a bit older. 

Honestly, there are a lot of possibilities where you can tweak your performance, starting with the GPU, over to RAM, mainboard, drivers and last but not least installation paths, SSD vs HDD and so on... that‘s really nothing PMDG has to do. As said before, the NGX has been released when? 2011? Look at the hardware available at that time... 

I had issues when opening the ATC window in early versions of P3Dv3 and in v4.0, but absolutely nothing since I have updated to 4.1 and later.

Dear @Ephedrin,

your statements are quite confusing:

- you first state the NGX does not need optimisation and that I should optimise my system -> so NGX is optimized

- then you say that the NGX is a decade old (well it was recompiled and prepared to run with P3D v4 which is not a decade old) -> so is it optimized or not?

- you then go over and state how well opotimized the FSL is because they use new optimisation tehnologies... -> oh boy...does the NGX need optimization or not?

Pretty confused man 🤕.

If you would have read my statements above you would have also noticed that most of the time it runs smooth and therefore I don't want to make a big deal about it. Just for the record, my system runs with SSD drives and my sim has even a dedicated M.2 drive plugged in a PCIe slot ;).

 

Nevertheless...my system is quite old if I could say that and it will be renewed by the end of this year.

Would you please record a video simmilar to mine an post your system config?

 

Thank you.

BR,

Gerald

Gerald,

the 737 is a very old addon that - at the time it was released - was optimized for the systems that were up to date - at that very time. Knowing PMDG a bit I can say pretty confidently that they took a valuable effort to make it run smooth - at that time. Today's hardware is a LOT faster than the hardware that was available when the 737 has been released. It was developed under 32bit, considering single core systems, low storage GPUs and a very CPU demanding FSX. Addons like the 777, 747, A320 have been developed with 64bit already in mind. Not so the 737. I have purchased the 737 I think in 2014 or 15 and even then with my old system it was running without any issues. I couldn't approach big cities, but that was due to FSX' use of CPU and the autogen fiasco of FSX, not due to the 737. Using newer systems can only make it better, as long as one takes into consideration, that mixing fast hardware won't necessarily make a stutter-free P3D experience. It's important that your computer is optimized to run P3D. My computer dealer (Arlt) explained it to me, you can use the fastest RAM with the fastest GPU and CPU and will possibly have issues because the hardware might not cooperate well. He adviced me to use a "slower" RAM for the CPU and GPU I used to get better results. (This is an example now, I'm no computer expert.)

Recompiling doesn't mean a complete rework from scratch, it means the code is modified to work with the new 64bit SDK. It still is an old code, although a lot had to be done. This old cold does work with the P3D4 SDK but doesn't take advantage from its new possibilities. You can see this when you use the cockpit lighting at night. It's ugly, no better words for that. It is STILL an FSX development, even though it works on 64bit without generating errors. But regarding the execution speed it won't suffer from today's hardware. Faster hardware leads to faster calculations, higher FPS or rather more possibilities for P3D to build its scenery. BUT to make the 737 take REAL advantage from the P3D4 SDK it would require a completely new development. And this would be the NG3. So all we can do is wait for it. Playing around with that old code that has been used in 2009/10 (?) or even before is like asking PMDG to talk Latin although they are used to english. There will be no major update to the NGX anymore, that's completely absurd. And what you are requsting IS a major update. It's not just adjusting a screw here and there... Just the same as asking Mercedes to update the 2010 E-Class because it's not as comfortable as the new one while it was top in 2010. 

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how well opotimized the FSL is because they use new optimisation tehnologies... -> oh boy...does the NGX need optimization or not?

No.If it was developed with P3Dv4 in mind I would agree with you. But it is an FSX addon that has "just" been recompiled. So far there is nothing PMDG can do within reasonable effort and costs. And FSL uses a completely different method that PMDG does. When you install FSL aircraft you are asked to let them take over your CPU management. I have never heard of PMDG doing anything similar. Just look were on your PC FSL installs files. They basically hack into your system core to adjust it as necessary for their addon to run smoothly. Nothing that has been needed in 2010 and so the 737 comes without any of these tricks. It just works as every other addon. How should they update it to something like the FSL method?? It has simply not been developed with anything like that in mind. Again, it would require a completely new addon. 

 

Quote

Would you please record a video simmilar to mine

What for? I have no FPS drops using any popups, neither with FSL nor with PMDG. I only have loading stutters when ORBX airports are loaded into the scenery. Too much effort for me against no value for you. 

 

When your Sim speed goes down as soon as you use Sim features then the last thing I would think about is the addon airplane. As Kyle said: There is absolutely no use of this window by the 737. even the automatic tuning of the radios via the ATC window is a basic FSX/P3D function that is used by the ATC window AND the 737, but not the 737 using the ATC window. 

 

And additionally I would like to remind you of the fact that there are people on the PMDG forums as well as over at FSLabs with top highend systems running into performance issues while others with older and weaker systems run it absolutely fluently. I am one of those lucky people who have had no big issues (running at 2K) but to get there I was tweaking my system for days and weeks. Every system is different and if you have an issue with the ATC popup without 500 people complaining about it too then I see absolutely no reason to tell PMDG that their stone old addon (compared to your other examples) was heavy on today's computers and needed any performance updates.

 

To add one last thing, as you have mentioned the SSD: I run P3D on an SSD and my P3Dv4 addons folder is located on an HDD (while my windows still is on another SSD). When I tried to install the FSL A320 into this addon folder (hence on the HDD) I was absolutely unable to use it, stutters, horrible frames, loading issues... Other people though run it smoothly from an HDD. I then reinstalled it and chose a folder on my P3D SSD just outside the P3D main folder, no issues anymore. BUT then I got the Leonardo Maddog that FORCES the installation path to be inside the addon folder on my HDD. Absolutely no problems. Smooth as silk. Other people run into performance issues having everything on an SSD. Every system is different, every addon is written differently. In the end it's up to the user to fine-tune the performance. 

Edited July 22, 20187 yr by Ephedrin