newtie

Air brake vs spoiler

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Hi

I see the blue spoiler lever has two detents, the first being an airbrake(?) and the second being full spoilers. Is it possible to separate the deployment of each with a keyboard or axis assignment?

Thanks,

Mark

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23 minutes ago, newtie said:

Hi

I see the blue spoiler lever has two detents, the first being an airbrake(?) and the second being full spoilers. Is it possible to separate the deployment of each with a keyboard or axis assignment?

Thanks,

Mark

There is something about that in the first few pages of the  manual, I think you use the key mappings for the G1000 controls. Or something. I'm not at my simming PC right now otherwise I'd give you better information.

Edited by Holdit

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It's a single lever so I don't understand why you want to split it? You can use pos 1 or pos 2 in flight and it makes sense to use pos 2 at/after touchdown.

Most speed brakes / spoilers / airbrakes have more than one extension angles/positions since you don't always need full deflection (which increases noise and vibration in many cases)

pos 1 = center panel 50°

pos 2 = inbd 37°, cntr 50°, outbd 67° 

Edited by FDEdev

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Hi Folks,

Yep - I just have them mapped to a button - first click pos 1 - second click pos 2... You really have to read the part on G1000 mappings - if nothing else... FSW uses a whole bunch of custom functions that don’t comply with normal assigments...

One you really don’t want to miss is the one for the engine reverser - if you use the standard F2 key the performance is unrealistic as only your number two engine has an actual reverser... You need to use the custom G1000 key here as well...

 

Regards,

Scott

Edited by scottb613
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13 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

It's a single lever so I don't understand why you want to split it? You can use pos 1 or pos 2 in flight and it makes sense to use pos 2 at/after touchdown.

Most speed brakes / spoilers / airbrakes have more than one extension angles/positions since you don't always need full deflection (which increases noise and vibration in many cases)

pos 1 = center panel 50°

pos 2 = inbd 37°, cntr 50°, outbd 67° 

I don’t have Chaseplane so to move that lever I have to Spacebar + Mouse down to the lever and back to the panel. Not good.

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4 minutes ago, newtie said:

I don’t have Chaseplane so to move that lever I have to Spacebar + Mouse down to the lever and back to the panel. Not good.

Hi Mark,

No need for CP - the Flysimware spoiler is assigned to a G1000 key instead of the “/“ key in the standard FSX/P3D settings - no additional software needed...

You can assign it to a button on your joystick - or - an unused keyboard shortcut - if you have no buttons available...

Regards,

Scott

Edited by scottb613

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11 minutes ago, scottb613 said:

Hi Folks,

Yep - I just have them mapped to a button - first click pos 1 - second click pos 2... You really have to read the part on G1000 mappings - if nothing else... FSW uses a whole bunch of custom functions that don’t comply with normal assigments...

Regards,

Scott

I did. There was nothing regarding separating the two functions. 

Softkey 1= Spoiler/Airbrake Extend

Softkey 2 = Spoiler/Airbrake Retract

not 

Softkey 1 = Spoiler Extend, etc.

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2 minutes ago, newtie said:

I did. There was nothing regarding separating the two functions. 

Softkey 1= Spoiler/Airbrake Extend

Softkey 2 = Spoiler/Airbrake Retract

not 

Softkey 1 = Spoiler Extend, etc.

Hi Mark,

OK - sorry - I don’t understand why you want two separate buttons - it’s a single lever in the aircraft - however - if that’s what you want - concur - not possible as is now...

Regards,

Scott

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20 minutes ago, newtie said:

I don’t have Chaseplane so to move that lever I have to Spacebar + Mouse down to the lever and back to the panel. Not good.

I don't have chaseplane either. Don't you have a hat switch for panning? Nevertheless, usually you need the airbrakes because you miscalculated your descent or ATC wants you to increase the ROD.

In 90% of the cases you pull the airbrakes to their aft stop because you need them now

In many simulated planes the airbrake effectiveness is way overdone but IRL they can't do magic and at high speed (>300kts) they can approximately double the ROD, at low speed they are much less effective.

On my T16000M I also have one button to fully extend them and one for retraction.

IF I have enough time to 'fine tune' the descent with half airbrakes I can pan down and grab them with the mouse 😉

It's definitely more realistic than using two different axis/buttons for a single flight control unit.

 

Edited by FDEdev

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31 minutes ago, scottb613 said:

Hi Mark,

OK - sorry - I don’t understand why you want two separate buttons - it’s a single lever in the aircraft - however - if that’s what you want - concur - not possible as is now...

Regards,

Scott

I just found a solution. I have the T1600M stick like the simmer above. It's got a slider on its base. I assigned the spoiler axis to that slider and interestingly, it controls both surfaces, in order, incrementally. That is, airbrake (min/max and between) then spoilers (min/max and between) with full back closing both. I think I like it. Well, off to Thanksgiving!

Cheers,

Mark

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On which page(s) have you found the guidelines? I've read the AFM but I didn't find any info.

Edited by FDEdev

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31 minutes ago, newtie said:

I just found a solution. I have the T1600M stick like the simmer above. It's got a slider on its base. I assigned the spoiler axis to that slider and interestingly, it controls both surfaces, in order, incrementally. That is, airbrake (min/max and between) then spoilers (min/max and between) with full back closing both. I think I like it. Well, off to Thanksgiving!

Cheers,

Mark

Note while the axis approach to the airbrakes will usually provide many intermediate settings, in the real a/c there are only 3 settings: all off, middle panel fully deployed, and all panels fully deployed.

Al

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In my installation, I have the airbrake and engine two reverser assigned to three buttons on my CH throttle quadrant, using the G1000 functions mentioned in the manual.

Button 1, when pressed once, extends the airbrakes to position 1. Pressed a second time, they extend to position 2.

Button 2 will retract them when they are deployed. If they are at position 2, two presses will retract them. If they are at position 1, then only one press is required.

If there is any doubt as to the airbrake position, two presses on button two will insure that they are fully retracted, without the need to look down at the center console.

Pressing button 3 deploys the engine two reverser after touchdown. To stow the reverser, it is necessary to briefly move the engine two power lever forward from the idle stop, then back to idle.

 

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4 hours ago, FDEdev said:

On which page(s) have you found the guidelines? I've read the AFM but I didn't find any info.

From page 208 onward, you have the recommended airbrake settings for an approach at various flap settings, mostly it is position 2, but it also states that it is not recommended/prohibited (dependent on which section you are reading) from 500 feet AGL

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To get realism we have only 3 positions so the / key will no longer work for this aircraft.

In the sim with your mouse you need to left click to increase and right click retract. So that is why we had to make 2 assignments for a joystick. Same process extend incrementally and retract incrementally.

Edited by Flysimware

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2 hours ago, Chock said:

From page 208 onward, you have the recommended airbrake settings for an approach at various flap settings, mostly it is position 2, but it also states that it is not recommended/prohibited (dependent on which section you are reading) from 500 feet AGL

Hm, I still didn't couldn't find any recommended airbrake settings for approach. The only items that I could find are that you have to extend them to pos 2 after touchdown and you that you have to  retract them in case of go-around (and the limitation/recommendation when not to use them at all). 

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10 hours ago, FDEdev said:

Nevertheless, usually you need the airbrakes because you miscalculated your descent or ATC wants you to increase the ROD.

FDEdev-

You got me here. This was the problem until a day or two ago when I discovered VCalc in the Garmin 750. Don't think deploying the airbrake will be an issue in the future if you're at the correct altitude over the IAF. :>)

Still like my slider...love the incremental deployment even though not exactly as the real ac 😎

Thanks for the help,

Mark

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7 hours ago, FDEdev said:

Hm, I still didn't couldn't find any recommended airbrake settings for approach. The only items that I could find are that you have to extend them to pos 2 after touchdown and you that you have to  retract them in case of go-around (and the limitation/recommendation when not to use them at all). 

Exactly, those are the guidelines I was referring to. 🙂

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9 hours ago, FDEdev said:

Hm, I still didn't couldn't find any recommended airbrake settings for approach. The only items that I could find are that you have to extend them to pos 2 after touchdown and you that you have to  retract them in case of go-around (and the limitation/recommendation when not to use them at all). 

Back in the day when I maintained a Falcon 50, I only flew on it as a passenger twice, and I don’t recall when and how the air brakes were used.

In my current position though, I fly in the jump seat on our Falcon 900EXs on a regular basis. The 900’s TFE731-60 engines have more power than the -40s found on the Falcon 50, and it is a heavier airplane, but operating techniques are very similar. The airbrake system is identical, with two positions. In fact, the airbrake handle, aileron and rudder trim switches and indicator is exactly the same one used in the Falcon 50.

The 900EX does have auto throttles and full VNAV, with a Honeywell Primus 2000 glass cockpit.

The other difference is that the flaps have three settings. Deploying slats also extends the flaps to 7 degrees.

Flap and slat limits re: airspeeds for extend and retract are almost identical to the 50. VREF is a little higher - usually about 120 knots at typical operating weights.

I see the spoilers used often in descent above 10,000 feet, and during speed reduction to 250 knots at 10,000 feet if they are doing a high speed descent.

Our crews normally do a hand-flown visual approach at our home airport if weather allows. They may use air brakes for a few moments when decelerating below 200 knots when entering the airport traffic area, but always stow them before deploying slats. They usually deploy slats and flaps 7 on the downwind leg at 2000 feet AGL below 190 knots, flaps 20 and extend the gear on base leg, and flaps 40 and slow to VAPP on final.

I have never seen airbrakes used once slats and flaps 7 are deployed - there is really no need. Power reduction alone provides sufficient deceleration for further flap extension and gear deployment. The same would probably apply to operating the 50

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